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 Post subject: Re: eFX ANH Vader Helmet Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:15 am 
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3 Apple tabs and remnants of two more

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 Post subject: Re: eFX ANH Vader Helmet Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:50 am 
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SithLord wrote:
Naturally I've done a bit of comparing but only with photos because my two helmets will still take a while to get to me and I would ideally like to examine them first. In the meantime, was it just me that noticed something strange about the photo in the booklet that comes with the helmet of what looks like is supposed to be a photo of the master pull of the helmet (dome)? It looks just like a production copy (in terms of how the front flaring edges have been modified). I wouldn't have expected that.

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Is there any text accompanying those pictures, stating what they are? Even if it is the master that was molded for the production helmets, does it show the state of the dome as it came out of the RB mold, or does it show the state of it after preparation for molding for the production helmets, seeing as the domes on both versions are identical.


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 Post subject: Re: eFX ANH Vader Helmet Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:18 am 
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Unfortunately there is no text stating specifically what those photos are.

That's an interesting photo with the 3M tabs too. I wonder though if it is showing the tabs or the remnants of the tab locations?


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 Post subject: Re: eFX ANH Vader Helmet Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:21 pm 
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Too Much Garlic wrote:
Is there any text accompanying those pictures, stating what they are? Even if it is the master that was molded for the production helmets, does it show the state of the dome as it came out of the RB mold, or does it show the state of it after preparation for molding for the production helmets, seeing as the domes on both versions are identical.



The state after preparation for molding for the production helmets. That is to say, apart from slight curvature difference of Vader's right side flaring toward the bottom corner, it is the same as the production helmets.


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 Post subject: Re: eFX ANH Vader Helmet Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:27 pm 
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dcarty wrote:
That's an interesting photo with the 3M tabs too. I wonder though if it is showing the tabs or the remnants of the tab locations?



Well when the RB mold was made, they removed the mounting tabs and filled the holes. What you are seeing are the negatives of the filled holes along with the small ridges for where the tabs used to be, and there were three of them, as what one would see on the original ANH mask. Since there were the extra four depressions of what might have been the beginnings of holes (or even previously filled holes during early in ANH production), there are two rows of five equally spaced filled spots, making it look as if there were five tabs, but that's just an illusion of the filling process since it was done equally for both the actual tab locations and the two sets of tab remnant holes.

It would have been nice to see a clear image of the original RB dome mold from the inside as well. Perhaps there is a reason it wasn't shown from the inside as the mask mold was.


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 Post subject: Re: eFX ANH Vader Helmet Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:43 pm 
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i knew i read somewhere that there were more than one ANH helmet made..here is an interview on starwarshelmets.com with John Mollo and Brian Muir.

STW.com - For production, how many Vader Helmets were produced?
Mollo - There was one main helmet plus a double. Its quite possible there was also a fall-back (3rd) helmet but its unlikely there were any more.

Brian Muir - As far as "How Many Vader helmets were made", we're still not sure. Brian adds..I saw raw castings and finished helmets but I can't say I saw all three in both stages. The helmets would all differ as no casting would be exactly the same due to the fact that the rubber has to be placed back into the case and it will never sit into the case exactly the same each time. Also in the laying up of the gel coat you can have air bubbles appear in different areas which are filled and rubbed down. These are extremely subtle differences but nevertheless are there.

this may be why the dome of the efx looks slightly different than one of film used helmet(s). or another helmet that the efx has been compared with on this forum.

im sure some, if not most of you already know about this..but both state that there were more than one helmet made..but never more than three that they know of..or weather any of those three were ever used in the film. neither say that only one was definitely used and not the others..so another may have been used..but they dont know for sure..so that says to me that its definitely possible that there was a second helmet that was used for filming and possibly a third. it would explain the different looks of the dome that i see in the film.
. if that image of the casting in the booklet is the original dome. then that explains the look that the efx has. and so it is possible that one of the helmets that was made was slightly different or possibly reworked to get that look that is seen in other shots of the film.

and again..they did make two different stormtrooper helmets. one for close ups shots, hero. and another for all shots, stunt. so why wouldn't they do that with the Vader as well? i think they would have.

Sithlord. when you get your two efx..compare the outer edges of the dome. rather than the inner flaring of the dome. to see is if the outer edges of the dome match up with your SL. because i am thinking that the one used for "most" of the filming was slightly different as Muir stated that multiple castings would differ from one another. so they might not match up. or possibly they had the inner edges of the flaring of the dome reworked. to give it that look that it had and the the SL has. becasue if they (SL efx) are the same dome from the same mold than the outer edges should match. but again..they might not. not sure if you have done that..maybe you have..but im just trying to figure out like the rest of us why the domes are different. there had to have been another dome that was created for the film. ive gone through a lot of film used ANH helmet images and i can see some that look like the eFx and some shots that look like your SL. there is no other explanation. so my conclusion is that there were other helmets/casts made and used for the film. at least that's what im getting from what i have found out in those interviews. and the comparisons of the SL and the efx and film used helmet(s). not to mention that efx themselves claim that it is the same exact helmet that was used in the tantive lV scene when vader was interrogating princess Leia. and i hope you dont mind me talking about your SL on this thread...because that's really what everyone is comparing the efx to. that and an original film used helmet. what are your thought on this Sithlord?


Last edited by DynamicMenace on Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: eFX ANH Vader Helmet Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:02 pm 
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So, where are the nicks and dents located or - in other words - what makes a Legend a Legend?

These two are easy to spot.

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 Post subject: Re: eFX ANH Vader Helmet Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:06 pm 
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StarWars Collector wrote:
So, where are the nicks and dents located or - in other words - what makes a Legend a Legend?

These two are easy to spot.


here is what is posted on eFX's website..under their "Legend" stormtrooper helmet....
Just as a reminder, a Legend must be either cast or utilize the original molds. NO 3D SCANNING or 3D MODELING.

so that is what makes it a legend..if you look at the top front part of the dome (forehead area) you will see some dents which match up with the original.


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 Post subject: Re: eFX ANH Vader Helmet Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:22 am 
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DynamicMenace wrote:
i knew i read somewhere that there were more than one ANH helmet made..here is an interview on starwarshelmets.com with John Mollo and Brian Muir.

STW.com - For production, how many Vader Helmets were produced?
Mollo - There was one main helmet plus a double. Its quite possible there was also a fall-back (3rd) helmet but its unlikely there were any more.

Brian Muir - As far as "How Many Vader helmets were made", we're still not sure. Brian adds..I saw raw castings and finished helmets but I can't say I saw all three in both stages. The helmets would all differ as no casting would be exactly the same due to the fact that the rubber has to be placed back into the case and it will never sit into the case exactly the same each time. Also in the laying up of the gel coat you can have air bubbles appear in different areas which are filled and rubbed down. These are extremely subtle differences but nevertheless are there.


I know. I knew Brian before he even came on this forum and naturally I asked about the helmets used in the production.


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this may be why the dome of the efx looks slightly different than one of film used helmet(s). or another helmet that the efx has been compared with on this forum.



The problem with your idea is that we know the source of the mold, and what helmet it was taken off of.

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im sure some, if not most of you already know about this..but both state that there were more than one helmet made..but never more than three that they know of..or weather any of those three were ever used in the film. neither say that only one was definitely used and not the others..so another may have been used..but they dont know for sure..so that says to me that its definitely possible that there was a second helmet that was used for filming and possibly a third. it would explain the different looks of the dome that i see in the film.


We know there was only one helmet seen on film. We also know there were three and perhaps four pulls. But Brian also thought my TD ANH was taken off the third pull, which isn't the case. So things are not always so cut and dried as far as what you might read or quote.

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. if that image of the casting in the booklet is the original dome. then that explains the look that the efx has. and so it is possible that one of the helmets that was made was slightly different or possibly reworked to get that look that is seen in other shots of the film.


Well, it isn't the way the original dome looked in the front flaring edge. Again, we know the source of the mold, and therefore the particular original pull from the production that was molded.

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and again..they did make two different stormtrooper helmets. one for close ups shots, hero. and another for all shots, stunt. so why wouldn't they do that with the Vader as well? i think they would have.


Well the Vader helmet was made and finished in a completely different way than the TK helmets. One simple word could explain why one helmet was used in filming....continuity. At least that is what we see onscreen in regard to the ANH helmet.

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Sithlord. when you get your two efx..compare the outer edges of the dome. rather than the inner flaring of the dome. to see is if the outer edges of the dome match up with your SL.


I'm not talking about the inside of the dome flaring. I'm talking about the front flaring edge. The front face of the front flarings, and also the shape of the edge of the front flaring.

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because i am thinking that the one used for "most" of the filming was slightly different as Muir stated that multiple castings would differ from one another. so they might not match up.


Match then the type of flaring edges we see on the eFX onscreen. You cannot because they are not accurate.

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or possibly they had the inner edges of the flaring of the dome reworked. to give it that look that it had and the the SL has.


I would consider a bit more carefully the logic of an argument that suggests that it was the onscreen original that was reworked and some unseen helmet from ANH was molded by eFX instead. The eFX and SL come from the same mold.

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becasue if they (SL efx) are the same dome from the same mold than the outer edges should match.


Bingo.

Quote:

but again..they might not. not sure if you have done that..maybe you have..but im just trying to figure out like the rest of us why the domes are different.


I have as I said using photos already posted of the eFX production copies, and I wouldn't bring up a point unless I studied it in some detail and knew if it was the case or not.

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there had to have been another dome that was created for the film.


Why? You are presupposing that the eFX is de facto identical to the original ANH in every way. And failing that then there must be another helmet it was sourced from. But that isn't the case here.

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ive gone through a lot of film used ANH helmet images and i can see some that look like the eFx and some shots that look like your SL.


Show me one that has the same edges in terms of their profile (I'm not talking about curvature here, I'm talking about the cross-sectional profile of the edge itself). It is so obvious on the eFX that the lower front flaring corners are square. Show me where you see that onscreen.

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there is no other explanation.


That's funny, because I suggested other explanations.

Quote:
so my conclusion is that there were other helmets/casts made and used for the film. at least that's what im getting from what i have found out in those interviews. and the comparisons of the SL and the efx and film used helmet(s). not to mention that efx themselves claim that it is the same exact helmet that was used in the tantive lV scene when vader was interrogating princess Leia. and i hope you dont mind me talking about your SL on this thread...because that's really what everyone is comparing the efx to. that and an original film used helmet. what are your thought on this Sithlord?


It is moot that there were other casts made for the film. We don't see them, and Rick Baker didn't mold them. Just the one helmet seen onscreen. It was molded, and not just the SL but the DJ, and other pulls like the funeral pyre helmet all have the same flaring profile on the edge. Any high resolution reference shows it, any pull known to come from the Rick Baker mold shows it, and yet the eFX does not. So, I didn't put into question the source of eFX's dome, but wanted to know whether the image shown was the master pull or not. If not, then it could be a pull taken from a modified master pull. That's a very simple alternative explanation that doesn't require negation of the source of the eFX pull.


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 Post subject: Re: eFX ANH Vader Helmet Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:16 pm 
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well thank you for clearing this up for me Sithlord. and thanks for taking the time to address everything i was saying and explaining things to me. and i didn't mean to come off as that i definitely knew what they did and that i know it all..becasue i definitely dont..im only speculating because i dont know for a fact. and i know you wouldn't bring up a point unless you didn't study it thoroughly first. i wasn't implying that you didn't..and im not implying that what your talking about is wrong. becasue it is clear that you are right. you know a whole lot more about this stuff than i do that's for sure. im only bringing up what i am seeing on screen compared to the eFX and the SL..because i am seeing both of these looks/domes in the film. what i should have said is two different domes used in the film. instead of two different helmets. but the film images i am seeing are why i am thinking that that could be the case. at least that's what appears to me anyway. maybe i am seeing an optical illusion. i dont know.
but here are some screen images compared with an efx lid. the one on the left is from a scene on the Tantive lV. and the one on the bottom is from the Obi-Wan duel scene on the death star after he strikes Obi-Wan down. (both close up shots) now if your referring to the flat square edges of the flaring than you can clearly see them in the film screen shots ive posted. and the shape of the edge of the flaring seems to be the same to me as well. and this is what i was talking about. these screen shots appear to have the square corners and flat edge you are referring to. unless im not understanding what your talking about...lol. and again maybe what im seeing in the screen shots is an illusion then. but those screen shots look really similar to the efx. even though they are shot from different angels. (and the image on the top left's dome is off center to the right of the bridge of the nose) i can see the flat edges and square corners and the shape of the edge of the flaring looks to be the similar as well. yes? no? maybe? what do you think?
please, correct me if i am wrong.

Image

Image
i just want to know why eFX claims that their Legend is the one used in the interrogation scene of princess Leia on the Tantive lV..they also point out their hero stormtrooper helmet that was used in that same scene while there were stunts in the scene as well. another reason why i am am speculating that there were possibly two different domes used. one for close ups..and one for far way shots. such as the stormtroopers. hero(close ups) and stunt.
but i could be wrong..and more than likely i am...lol wouldn't be the first time.. :wink:

i know the majority of you people on here have a lot more knowledge about all this stuff than i do. specially you Sithlord. i just want to acquire that knowledge myself..

for knowledge is power.. and knowing is half the battle.. :thumbsup

maybe i should just shut up and stop speculating.. :lol :cheers


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 Post subject: Re: eFX ANH Vader Helmet Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:44 pm 
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DynamicMenace wrote:
i just want to know why eFX claims that their Legend is the one used in the interrogation scene of princess Leia on the Tantive lV..they also point out their hero stormtrooper helmet that was used in that same scene while there were stunts in the scene as well.

The Rick Baker mold was made off the screen used ANH, so they could have used any scene with Vader, though, since the Tantive scenes were shot last, they are the closest to the molding - sure, they could have used the TIE fighter shots instead, as that would be even closer, being pick-ups after principal photography (if I remember correctly). The point of that image is simply that both original helmets that eFX are offering link back to are seen together in that scene - so only need to post one image rather than two unconnected images showing the helmets. Screen used Vader and screen used hero trooper helmet. There really isn't more to that, in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: eFX ANH Vader Helmet Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:03 pm 
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I think both of these scenes use the same dome, as the Tant' Vader moves to the side the details show up a bit clearer and there's just enough to match them up. The main difference is in the quality/type of the film used between shots, as can be seen in the silver on the nose bridge.

Image

This efx is my first real up close up look at something from the Baker mold but I have been getting a better all round match in shape and detail with Vader from the Corbis/JS shoot time period rather than going directly from pics from the movie to the finished efx. Would I be right in thinking the Baker mold was made around the time of that photo shoot?


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 Post subject: Re: eFX ANH Vader Helmet Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:01 pm 
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The film lenses are definitely playing a part. Proportions aren't quite the same but universally so across the whole mask if you see what I mean...


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 Post subject: Re: eFX ANH Vader Helmet Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:33 am 
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Does anyone know the colors used for the Efx Legend? Did they stick to the original paint or what most people have been painting thier lids and face masks with? Just curious. I know the films and lighting have a lot to do with it but it appears that the colors may be a bit off. But again I am 42 and maybe going a little color blind.

G-man


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 Post subject: Re: eFX ANH Vader Helmet Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:37 am 
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Albatrossone wrote:
The film lenses are definitely playing a part. Proportions aren't quite the same but universally so across the whole mask if you see what I mean...


that's a good point. :thumbsup


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