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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:55 pm 
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gonk27 wrote:
Also where would you say the ESB helmet and shoulders that Don Bies repainted fits into all this? and as for the "other" that Jez mentions, do I take it that's TM's original?


I'm hoping Tom will tell us more about the origin of the TM. There is still something about it that perplexes me but I was saving that for another TM discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:19 pm 
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Darthvaderv wrote:
clapperboard Vader

Image Image

Darthvaderv wrote:
Warwick helmet

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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:59 pm 
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:thumbsup ,I have to leave but in the meantime who wants to do some red circles.


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:25 pm 
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I don't know about red circles... and people may laugh at me for this, but I'm fairly certain that the helmet Warwick Davis is wearing is in fact THE ANH helmet refurbished. It has details that I have not seen in any ESB hero helmet... and those lenses are what caused me to look at it more closely.

Sure, I can be wrong... but I could also be right... and we've now heard a few people mention that the ANH was re-used for the later films. So why not? Would be interesting to hear what Warwick Davis has to say about the helmet he tried on... in case he could remember something more detailed about it other than what he wrote on his homepage.


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:28 am 
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I spent some time this early morning looking into this. I was not convinced about the lens details. But I saw your analysis before and I went to the same area I looked at when I compared the Elstree mask and the original ANH mask and found the Elstree was the ANH mask. There is a way in which light reflects off the front surface of the mouth triangle...whether differences in the regularity of the surface or differences in the paint itself. But they have carried over at least to the time of the Elstree mask which was likely around 1979. If that mask was at Elstree at that time, seeing it cut up into an ESB mask would then make sense, as 1979 was during the production of ESB. So, at this point, and not because of the lenses but as you mentioned before about Vader's right inside edge of the mouth triangle and this pattern, I agree with you Carsten that there is too much going on here for it to be a coincidence.... it may very well be what happened to the original ANH mask and I'm really at a loss of words if this is what happened to it...but my own examination indicates the same thing. :sad5

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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:36 pm 
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It is a good theory as I stated before Carsten.

Going back to ESB, we have to remember that there are very few shots that show small lens imperfections that can be seen on screen.

This is just an example and not necessarily related as I am not convinced. I know of 2 ESB's that had similar lens pits etc and it wasn't just the flash reacting to the lens which I know can fool many people. The pic is a shot of an ESB hero.

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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:54 pm 
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SithLord wrote:
So, at this point, and not because of the lenses but as you mentioned before about Vader's right inside edge of the mouth triangle and this pattern, I agree with you Carsten that there is too much going on here for it to be a coincidence.... it may very well be what happened to the original ANH mask and I'm really at a loss of words if this is what happened to it...but my own examination indicates the same thing. :sad5

And all this because you had to say the VP couldn't possibly be related to the Elstree picture facemask... which got me to focus on the scratch details on the lenses and other details... and then you finding scenes in the movie showing the same details, showing a link from the VP to the Elstree picture to the screen ANH... and then me seeing these details in other pictures leading to the Warwick Davis picture of an ESB that looked unlike the other ESB helmets in terms of paint job and sheen... and with the scratches in the lenses... damn... I BLAME YOU for all this!!! We could have lived on in ignorant bliss forever if you hadn't said those magic words - "the VP and the Elstree picture facemask wasn't related".

D'OH! :banger :protest :nono :violent :ac10



:blah :cheers


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:51 pm 
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Hahahaha.

:blah

But hey I'm trying to remember about when I said the VP and Elstree mask were not related...I think I meant in terms of the details on the inside edge of where the lenses meet the eyebrows and the marks on the surface of the VP lenses because remember I found they didn't all line up exactly, or that the mark on the right lens was on the surface of the VP and I think the imperfections we see on the screen lens are on the interior (based on the idea of the tint film applied and that the SL doesn't have the same imperfections on the surface of its lenses). But of course the VP is related to the original screen mask, but in terms of where down the lineage I'm not sure yet but I think we'll find out sometime soon....

:cheers


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:28 pm 
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I was just looking at the ESB reveal again....not only is it not painted inside the nose, the gunmetal seems darker and in this image it looks to me like that is an ANH-style dome...

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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:37 pm 
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Great info guys. Sorry to be pedantic but going back to the list....

2 x main "Hero" helmets, all placed in the movie
1 x Hero helmet possibly placed in movie
1 x Reveal - placed in movie
1 x stunt with perspex cheeks - but possibly 2
1 x Dagobah/Luke reveal.

=6

Then there's the possibility of a "lighting helmet", but has anyone seen a photo if this in any behind the scenes shots?

=7

So where are these helmets now?

Planet Hollywood has one (I presume a hero) - I photo'd this 4-5 years ago.
LFL has at least one if not two?
I distinctly remember Christies auctioning one off in London in 1980/81 and it going for £12,000. I remember this as a teenager and wishing I had £12k

Others?

Given budget constraints I'd expect the remaining helmet were re-used is RotJ, although we dont know if they were refurbished.

Cheers

Jez


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:24 pm 
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BingoBongo275 wrote:
Great info guys. Sorry to be pedantic but going back to the list....

2 x main "Hero" helmets, all placed in the movie
1 x Hero helmet possibly placed in movie
1 x Reveal - placed in movie
1 x stunt with perspex cheeks - but possibly 2
1 x Dagobah/Luke reveal.

=6
Jez


By my account that is correct naturally. I don't believe a 2nd stunt was made though although you haven't counted it anyway. I would say a 3rd hero is a very high certainty as I have a rare pic that ties it in 100% as a hero that differs from the rest, but still a hero. I just can't place it on screen 100% but I think I have found it, but even with HD I can't be definate, still the answer is 3 hero's.

There was alteration to the Dagobah roll/stunt/reveal as some of my screen caps show, as the chin vent wasn't cut out and it had extra damage to the neck, although I believe it is the same although some may count 2 seperate ones by way of differences, nevertheless I think that may be splitting hairs and I don't want to confuse anyone.


Quote:
Then there's the possibility of a "lighting helmet", but has anyone seen a photo if this in any behind the scenes shots?

=7


I haven't seen concrete evidence myself. Although I do collect Vintage material and it often hints at the use of some props was used in this way at times. I can't get confirmation 100% to say that an extra Vader helmet was made for this use, although I did visit Elstree studios last year and have emailed many people that were connected with the film. Some say they don't know, others say it's possible but they can't recall, some don't even email back. A story came around over 2 years ago when Vadermainia bought his TM, and the buyer stated that was the purpose of the prop. Some people discard this idea though as just a story but if you examined the TM it's definately not a recent casting and seems to have alot in common with a very late 1978 ESB casting. Again, this is not concrete that the story fits with this particular helmet, but personally I believe it is true and not through any personal gain either, as it doesn't really matter for the facemask anyway as Vadermania removed the paint.

Quote:
So where are these helmets now?

Planet Hollywood has one (I presume a hero) - I photo'd this 4-5 years ago.
LFL has at least one if not two?
I distinctly remember Christies auctioning one off in London in 1980/81 and it going for £12,000. I remember this as a teenager and wishing I had £12k


1)Planet Hollywood had a hero but I do not know it's location currently, it may of been returned.

2) A hero is in the LFL archives -

3) Paul Allen owns the ESB stunt which features at a recent museum and pics are on this forum.

4) The warwick Davis is another point of interest, if you had to put it into a category it would be ESB, let the large vent not fool anyone to thinking it's ROTJ, there can be no dispute for the dome not being ESB either.

5) Kurtz owned one of the ESB's but I don't know what happened since, I believe it was sold.


Quote:
Others?

Given budget constraints I'd expect the remaining helmet were re-used is RotJ, although we dont know if they were refurbished.

Cheers


I struggle to believe more than 3 ESB's were used for Jedi, personally I think it's 2 myself. I do know that a few Jedi helmets that were made were turned into Tour pieces rather then their original intention. However it is my opinion and (I'm no ROTJ expert) that only 3 helmets were used on screen, one hero featured most of the time and there was another hero with the stunt being the 3rd mask. I also know one hero and the stunt had the same hat mount as ESB from photographic evidence, I don't know about the 3rd helmet.


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:31 am 
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Thanks Paul - I dont disagree with you on any of this.

IMO the "Lighting Helmet" didnt exist. Ive since been able to check against a resource with the largest database of behind the scenes ESB pics (not mine I may add) and there's not a single suggestion of one. Before anyone asks I dont unfortunately have access myself :(. Personally speaking I'd need to see some concrete evidence to suggest it exists

IMO the Dagobah/Roll was a single helmet, just altered to help the actor. There's no logical reason why they would have 2 - especially whan (as Mollo told me) the budget was very small and they were always looking to cut corners.

Regarding your point (4), are you saying Warwick owned the helmet and its one of the six? I must have missed that discuission on the Warwick/Elstree so am confused.

As far as how many are out there, I think I agree with your 5
-PH Hero
-LFL Hero
-PA Stunt
-WD ?
-Kurtz/JJ (poss sold)

However I'd also be inclined to add the Christies 1980/81 which I dont think was one of those above. If true then it accounts for all six.

Cheers

Jez


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:06 am 
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BingoBongo275 wrote:
Thanks Paul - I dont disagree with you on any of this.

IMO the "Lighting Helmet" didnt exist. Ive since been able to check against a resource with the largest database of behind the scenes ESB pics (not mine I may add) and there's not a single suggestion of one. Before anyone asks I dont unfortunately have access myself :(. Personally speaking I'd need to see some concrete evidence to suggest it exists

Jez


It's possible either way, as you say we have both heard of a story or two regarding this but I agree, nothing can be documented as fact until there is proof.

Quote:
IMO the Dagobah/Roll was a single helmet, just altered to help the actor. There's no logical reason why they would have 2 - especially whan (as Mollo told me) the budget was very small and they were always looking to cut corners.


I agree. I was just being particular to mention the differences that might go unnoticed.

Quote:
Regarding your point (4), are you saying Warwick owned the helmet and its one of the six? I must have missed that discuission on the Warwick/Elstree so am confused.


I don't know if he is still in possession of this helmet but it featured on his website, I was unable to obtain contact regarding whether he owned it or still does as a certainty.

Quote:
As far as how many are out there, I think I agree with your 5
-PH Hero
-LFL Hero
-PA Stunt
-WD ?
-Kurtz/JJ (poss sold)

However I'd also be inclined to add the Christies 1980/81 which I dont think was one of those above. If true then it accounts for all six.

Cheers


Well, one may be the other in this list because apart from the ESB reveal, it will mean a whole can of worms will be open because it will mean that either the ROTJ are 2nd generation based casts, meaning a mold was made of an ESB, then that casting was altered and then re-molded (which I doubt). So either a helmet is missing along the way or there is a duplication in the exsisting helmets out there which is more than likely :cheers .


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:33 pm 
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Darthvaderv wrote:
Planet Hollywood has one (I presume a hero) - I photo'd this 4-5 years ago.
LFL has at least one if not two?


Do you recall what it looked like? ANH? And if so, did it at all look like a Fyberdyne?


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:38 pm 
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I assume that when some members here talk about a "lighting helmet" they are probably referring to the TM ESB.

Just for clarification, I'd like to post an excerpt of an email from the seller again (it was already posted on the TM ESB Vader helmet thread some time ago):

"...the helmet was actually my partners and it was given to him when he was a young boy by his uncle who worked on the set as a fibro plasterer. He made the majority of the helmets, masks etc. The helmet you have was made either before or during the making of ESB and it was made for the stand in if needed, but the helmet was not called upon, so was given to my partner. ..."

As I understand it, the helmet was made for a stand-in, but it wasn't needed. So it has probably never seen the lights of the ESB set.


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