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 Post subject: Re: VP revisited
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:29 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:40 pm
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Location: Plymouth,England
I Would take both faceplate and ESB/ROTJ dome in a heartbeat,


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 Post subject: Re: VP revisited
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:52 am 
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SithLord wrote:
You mean like this? :wink:

Thanks again to Lambotour (I think?) for the Photoshop work of my old VP mask with GH master helmet...

Image



Looking at this who would not want a VP


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 Post subject: Re: VP revisited
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:02 pm 
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CSMacLaren wrote:
Not bad for a Photoshop but that is still mostly the screen used superimposed over the SL. We're not seeing the real SL.


? Actually it's the 1st pull VP, and you are seeing the real VP. In the original VP showoff thread of mine I showed the raw image then Lambotour improved on it. But I'm sure anything I show you will make a point of criticising, even if I am trying to help out in a thread.


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 Post subject: Re: VP revisited
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:20 pm 
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Actually, I believe it was Cantina Dude that did that photoshop on the VP. Either way that photo still looks great.


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 Post subject: Re: VP revisited
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:52 pm 
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Darth Karo wrote:
Actually, I believe it was Cantina Dude that did that photoshop on the VP. Either way that photo still looks great.

Agreed, and if the VP looks that good, you can pencil me in to any potential list that may or may not happen in the near, or far, future. :p


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 Post subject: Re: VP revisited
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:33 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:46 pm
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Location: San Jose, CA
SithLord wrote:
CSMacLaren wrote:
Not bad for a Photoshop but that is still mostly the screen used superimposed over the SL. We're not seeing the real SL.


? Actually it's the 1st pull VP, and you are seeing the real VP. In the original VP showoff thread of mine I showed the raw image then Lambotour improved on it. But I'm sure anything I show you will make a point of criticising, even if I am trying to help out in a thread.


VP... SL... typo on my part. I'm very tired from my day job but you get my meaning.

Thomas, if you can't take constructive criticism, don't blast people for "criticizing" when they're simply pointing out their personal observations or pointing out the simple truth. I'm sorry if you're having a hard time with viewpoints that contradict your own. Examine for yourself a capture of the scene, the surface textures, scratches, positioning, lines, darkened areas, lit areas, etc. are almost identical for the eyes, cheeks, etc. surfaces.

If the person who made this image created cropping masks for each facet of Vader's face and only mapped textures to the point that the textures did not overlap the borders of the VP's facets, you'd be able to tell.

However, it looks more like a general copy and paste from the screen used face over the VP image, replacing the lines and surfaces of the VP. This is not just a transparency overlay that would have revealed the original lines and surfaces. It appears to be a replacement, with some exception in, perhaps, the neck (where the cape chain would overlap) and some area of the mouth where the Tantive scene's mask had a shadow that was a bit more harsh.

Being a replacement, it's a truly excellently Photoshop image, but still not necessarily representative of the VP. So using a doctored photo and implying the VP could be made to look exactly is inconclusive - and I personally hate saying that because I'm a HUGE fan of the VP. Ask others if you disbelieve that statement. I'm for the VP. I like the image but I'd still prefer to see it painted with some temporary water-soluble acrylic paints. :cheers


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 Post subject: Re: VP revisited
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:06 pm 
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You could colour me interested too... if hypothetically they were ever attainable?


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 Post subject: Re: VP revisited
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:19 am 
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Ok, it might seem that way, and frankly I don't know how CantinaDude (thanks to him) did it, but here's the original image with the dressed one next to it. I think it is just careful texturing as you said but from what I can tell the original mask is still there. And I realized where the confusion might have came from since at that time when I combined the VP mask with the GH helmet (because the VP has with it a ROTJ helmet), I labeled the images SLANH just for my own convenience since at the time in the thread people were mistakenly calling it the VP ANH helmet, and it's just the mask, not the whole helmet. Ahhh well, semantics...no harm done. I thought it was a gorgeous combination at the time.

Image

Here's a proportion/scaling exercise I did at that time with the JB V2....a few things going on here but I'll just see what people think...

Image

And a comparison I did at the time against the GH ANH master (I took these in October, 2006)...keeping in mind the domes are the same dome so I could scale the images reasonably well. This was because at the time a few people were of the opinion the GH was a sculpted helmet, but one can see how the neck is really the same, but the left cheek is lower on the GH and built up on the right (Vader's right), the right side of the mouth triangle is sanded down so that part is thinner, and the mouth triangle from what I can see now was filled in on the left side making it look rotated counterclockwise (facing Vader). But anyway, you can see where the helmet (dome) came from....

Image

Here was a close vs far scaling exercise I showed in relation to a screen grab...sorry I forget the camera distances...

Image

So, I just enjoy comparing castings...and the VP is a nice one. Incidentally as I mentioned back then the VP is larger than any presently available fanmade mask (any 20th C or derivative) apart from the GH but their size similarity is just a coincidence since they are not really related (and the GH was worked on a bit).


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 Post subject: Re: VP revisited
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:12 am 
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SithLord wrote:
So, I just enjoy comparing castings...and the VP is a nice one. Incidentally as I mentioned back then the VP is larger than any presently available fanmade mask (any 20th C or derivative) apart from the GH but their size similarity is just a coincidence since they are not really related (and the GH was worked on a bit).

By larger, do you mean overall size? I may well be mistaken here, but if I read correctly, your size differential is not a good way to discern which cast is further up or down the generational scale. I hear you can get two different sized helmets from the same mold depending on a lot of variables. Frankly, the only one I know who can answer this one is AnsonJames.


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 Post subject: Re: VP revisited
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:03 pm 
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Location: San Jose, CA
SithLord wrote:
Here was a close vs far scaling exercise I showed in relation to a screen grab...sorry I forget the camera distances...

Image

So, I just enjoy comparing castings...and the VP is a nice one. Incidentally as I mentioned back then the VP is larger than any presently available fanmade mask (any 20th C or derivative) apart from the GH but their size similarity is just a coincidence since they are not really related (and the GH was worked on a bit).


You've made the GH+VP combination larger than the screen-used.


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 Post subject: Re: VP revisited
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:26 pm 
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i scaled the domes....the original dome is larger in proportion to the mask than a GH dome to a VP mask.


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 Post subject: Re: VP revisited
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:50 pm 
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Qui-Gonzalez wrote:
By larger, do you mean overall size? I may well be mistaken here, but if I read correctly, your size differential is not a good way to discern which cast is further up or down the generational scale. I hear you can get two different sized helmets from the same mold depending on a lot of variables. Frankly, the only one I know who can answer this one is AnsonJames.



One would think that you would get pull-to-pull variation greater than helmet to helmet variation, and I looked for that, but that's not the case. You can measure different parts and there will be consistent proportionalities if the mask is from a good source, and certain measures like cheek width will reflect overall size and thereby serve as an indicator (that part of the mold is going to be more stable than, say, the rear or crown or the eye width). This is based on my own study of over 30 different helmets....if Anson has done the same and found a different result, I'd be interested in hearing it. But the size serves as a reliable indicator of relationship, not necessarily lineage, but relationship, not proof, but an indicator. This is based on certain consistencies in the data. Castings from known later molds are smaller than the "original", whether it be a fan's master casting or something closer to the original but from a different source, or from an earlier LFL production (ROTJ is smaller than ESB is smaller than ANH). If you were a collector, and someone claimed "my mask is cast from the original", how could you tell if it had a nice paintjob and all the details? Well, one indicator is size. If that helmet dimensionally matches another helmet that is known to have been pulled many generations down from the original, what reason is there to think that it is one generation down? Yes a mold can shrink a lot if not cared for, and the number of generations cannot be implied based on size, but it does provide some indication (not proof, an indication) of relationship, either later or earlier, either closer to the original or generationally further down the line. It's simply a guide and as I continue to collect measurements, the relationships hold up.


Last edited by SithLord on Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: VP revisited
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:51 pm 
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SithLord wrote:
i scaled the domes....the original dome is larger in proportion to the mask than a GH dome to a VP mask.


Your scaling was good, but the size difference is observable even without computer tools. Just look at the chin triangle in your comparison image and see how much larger it is than the screen-used.

The GH Master dome is still larger than the screen-used to where the VP face is larger than the screen-used.

The red lines indicate the extra size/length, showing that of 3 measurements taken from the screen used, your comp is consistently larger.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: VP revisited
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:56 pm 
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Yes, it's impossible to scale it without the VP mask looking bigger. Therefore the proportions are not identical to the original. That was part of why I showed it.....it looks great but something was still off. That's why I tried a near/far comp. But thanks for pointing that out.


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 Post subject: Re: VP revisited
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:16 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:52 pm
Posts: 379
Nice faceplate. The dome has got to go though. :wink:


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