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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:06 am 
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GINO wrote:
This is not directed at any individual.
I see helmets here being claimed to be things that they aren't and people swallowing the fantasy hook line and sinker. I do realize and believe that it is not intentionally done. More of a case of wishful thinking about an item's pedigree, provenance, lineage, etc.. Especially when they have a financial or emotional investment in a piece.


Honestly this just sounds like sour grapes.

Quote:
The ugly truth that these owner's don't want to face is that any helmet taken out of an authentic mold or a helmet recast from another helmet taken from authentic mold COULD be indistinguishable from an unfinished production original.


This sentence really makes no sense whatsoever. And the word "could" makes it even more pointless. What kind of "truth" is there in a sentence related to a possibility? Furthermore, this misses the point of determining authenticity. The features of the originals are now known in some great detail. Yet you never discuss them, nor do you show us what makes your own helmets close to the originals in detail. Every fanmade helmet has features that can distinguish it's accuracy or lack thereof with respect to the original helmets. Every recast has tells that distinguish it as a recast. It isn't rocket science. Show me your ANH helmet up close and I'll tell you exactly what is not authentic about it (or what has been modified on it to make it look more authentic). If you were to examine the different castings yourself then you'd be able to tell what is authentic lineage or close to the original and what is not. Why don't you spend your time discussing the castings that have been presented on this forum instead of complaining about so called "wishful thinking" and "fantasy"?

Quote:
Even if the helmet was made a few years ago, it could easily be made so that you could not tell the difference.


Maybe you couldn't, but I could. And I have. And people have tried again and again to make their castings look more authentic. But hello...it's not that hard to tell what is authentic and what is not if you have the right reference material.

Quote:
"This one is .004" smaller so it must be further down in lineage."
Oh please make it stop. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?


Come on. You know fully well what can happen to molds. They can shrink. That's the simple basis for measuring casting size and that system has held up. Later helmets are smaller. 20th C recasts are all the same size as 20th C and all smaller than authentic lineage helmets. You are just sad that your own helmets are all smaller than they should be, so you discount that fact. And it's a fact based on simple measurements.

Quote:
You can argue helmets like the TM, and Thomas' helmets all day, when in reality there is no definitive proof that they are what you HOPE they are. It troubles me greatly to see these kinds of bold claims unquestioned into fact. You think you know, you really want to believe you know, but you really truly have no idea and in the end wishful thinking becomes your reality. Then you go posting that reality as facts when you are really just hoping, and people get seriously misinformed.


Why don't you actually be specific about what you are talking about instead of making generalities. TM and myself have done the research. TM's been to the archives, you have not. TM has handled original helmets, you have not. It seems a strange coincidence that my own assessment of a helmet agrees with someone who's worked for ILM and saw a production mold of a Vader helmet. It's also a coincidence I suppose that I took my own casting to the man who sculpted the original Vader helmet in 1976 and he seemed to agree with me as well. You claim to know people that have original helmets...where are they? I guess they don't have time for forums such as this. Or they are here quietly backing up everything you say.

And if you see facts misrepresented, do please enlighten us with your own facts to the contrary and be prepared to back them up. You are the one who has no idea and the fact is staring you right in the face...your ANH helmet that you claim is....what? From where? Who knows. Who cares. But I don't see it as being authentic and it is very easy to show why.

Quote:
The only thing that prevents authentic vader castings from being passed off (AND PROVEN) as original screen used or production pieces are their inability to duplicate all the finishing touches (the work done to finish a helmet ie lenses, grill, foam, straps, attachment mechs, paint method, etc..) That is why I am so reluctant to just make insider info public knowledge. Not with the way things are now, especially here. Maybe one day when all the BS goes away.


Who cares about the finishing touches? That's not what makes a helmet authentic. If you don't start out with an authentic casting, it doesn't matter how nice your little foam pieces and straps are, it's not going to be any more authentic. I don't see anyone trying to pass off a helmet as being from an original by improving the finishing...they change the details. Is that what "insider info" you are talking about? The finishing? Even if you gave out all your finishing knowledge, that won't make your own castings any more authentic, nor someone else's. We can speak of accurate finishing, and authentic details. But those are two sides of a coin.

Quote:
Just wanted to share my thoughts based on recent times.


Yes we truly are in sad and dark times with ignorance and false claims abound. I think that these new castings (let's name them shall we...the TM, TD, VP, SL...which is just like a DJ so let's include the DJ) coming to the fore only add to our ignorance and create a fantasy world of assumptions about what is authentic and what is not. And I am sure that no one here, given the extreme uncertainty about the authenticity of these castings would be interested in copies of those castings, now, would they.

:slp


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:06 am 
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Darth Karo wrote:
The disadvantage that pieces like the TM, TD and the new SL cast have is that EVERYONE knows where they came from: EBAY. In some folks eyes that loses credibility unjustly.


No, I think they are authentic casts, just not made during the time of production as claimed.


Darth Karo wrote:
Do you have any idea how much research Tom or Thomas has put into their helmets?


I have very little faith or respect for their research. Moreso Thomas'.


Darth Karo wrote:
He's not reckless with any wild theories or misinformation.


Depends on what you quantify as reckless. To me, stating as fact that a helmet acquired on ebay from someone with a very common story of provenance is an original production casting is very reckless.

Darth Karo wrote:
I'm done here as it will lead nowhere. Have fun.



I agree. Didn't really want to get into a debate about it, just wanted to say my peace.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:11 am 
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Have you ever heard of the saying, "Can't see the forest through all the trees?

I feel sorry for anyone who buys into the stuff you spout out.
Again, not really wanting to debate as there's no convincing those that do not wish to be convinced.
Just wanted to put my feelings out there for people more interested.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:13 am 
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GINO wrote:
It's description is the best I could do given the criteria and not revealing the source.
Regardless, I think you enter into a whole new world when you claim original made during the production. That's what we're talking about here.
Ask any die hard screen used prop collector and they'll tell you the same.



So what exactly is your helmet then? That page was originally for one-off's and originals. Being a one-off has no meaning frankly and says nothing about authenticity or accuracy. You don't see me putting my mask on that website making claims about it. Nor do you see TM putting his helmet on that website making claims about it. So what are you trying to prove with your helmet? Oh ya, right, you are not going to reveal that. :rolleyes


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:20 am 
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GINO wrote:
Have you ever heard of the saying, "Can't see the forest through all the trees?

I feel sorry for anyone who buys into the stuff you spout out.
Again, not really wanting to debate as there's no convincing those that do not wish to be convinced.
Just wanted to put my feelings out there for people more interested.



You don't want to debate because you have nothing to debate. And yet you started this thread....for what purpose? Oh, just to let your feelings out without actually debating anything. I suppose just to throw into question everything that's been discussed and shown about the TM, TD, VP, SL, and DJ helmets. But of course the almighty "I'm a ONE-OFF so I am the best" Gino ANH is the ultimate helmet for collectors to dream of. Well if they want, they can dream all they like about fabricated details...


Answer this one question for me:

Did you ask TM for a casting of his helmet?


If you want to talk about interest, look at the view counts for the TM/SL/VP/TD threads versus your own threads :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:32 am 
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GINO wrote:
Darth Karo wrote:

Darth Karo wrote:
He's not reckless with any wild theories or misinformation.


Depends on what you quantify as reckless. To me, stating as fact that a helmet acquired on ebay from someone with a very common story of provenance is an original production casting is very reckless.



So? Where were you in that thread? You had every opportunity to provide your expert commentary to the contrary. And it's semantics. I never stated what the TD ANH is....I stated what I THINK it is. You on the other hand, always state what your helmets ARE. That is the difference here. I think the TD ANH could be from the production and as far as Brian Muir is concerned it is original but not from the original mold. But the research is ongoing as I have stated clearly. So what fantasy is there? You are the one creating the fantasy by complaining about things without offering constructive arguments to any of the discussions of the TM, VP, SL or TD.


And what is this nonsense...."a very common story". The sellers father got the casting from a woman who worked on Star Wars ANH as a prop lady. Ya very common :rolleyes . And it just so happens that that same lady worked on another earlier production that Stuart Freeborn worked on. Oh I see just another common story...well the seller didnt' know that information so what reason did he have of lying about it?


Last edited by SithLord on Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The sad state of authentic Vader helmet castings.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:33 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:38 am
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Location: California
GINO wrote:
That is why I am so reluctant to just make insider info public knowledge. Not with the way things are now, especially here. Maybe one day when all the BS goes away.


I just think that all this secrecy in the Vader community just breeds this so called “BS” you are complaining about.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:37 am 
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SithLord wrote:
You don't want to debate because you have nothing to debate. And yet you started this thread....for what purpose? Oh, just to let your feelings out without actually debating anything.


Yeah. Pretty much. Haven't posted much lately and wanted to kind of express why as well as set the record straight for the impressionable.


SithLord wrote:
I suppose just to throw into question everything that's been discussed and shown about the TM, TD, VP, SL, and DJ helmets.


Yeah. Pretty much.

SithLord wrote:
But of course the almighty "I'm a ONE-OFF so I am the best" Gino ANH is the ultimate helmet for collectors to dream of. Well if they want, they can dream all they like about fabricated details...


I never said that. But I certainly did not fabricate any details.

SithLord wrote:
Answer this one question for me:

Did you ask TM for a casting of his helmet?


Kind of. Actually it was for the dome only. Luckily for me, a better opportunity came around very soon after and I thanked my lucky stars that I never stroke a deal with him as I'd be very upset right now that he would have had one of my items that I'd rather not let go of.
The only problem I've ever had with the TM is the restored tusk area. I do believe it is an authentic cast, just not a production original.

SithLord wrote:
If you want to talk about interest, look at the view counts for the TM/SL/VP/TD threads versus your own threads :wink:


That's because they either have one of those castings, or have hopes of obtaining one.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:41 am 
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GINO wrote:

Yeah. Pretty much. Haven't posted much lately and wanted to kind of express why as well as set the record straight for the impressionable.


What record? The record according to Gino? Well there's no substance to it because Gino never shares.

Quote:
I never said that. But I certainly did not fabricate any details.


They are there to see. Show me a closeup of the mask and dome front and I'll show them to you. Maybe you got them as recasts and are not even aware of them.

Quote:
SithLord wrote:
Answer this one question for me:

Did you ask TM for a casting of his helmet?


Kind of. Actually it was for the dome only. Luckily for me, a better opportunity came around very soon after and I thanked my lucky stars that I never stroke a deal with him as I'd be very upset right now that he would have had one of my items that I'd rather not let go of.
The only problem I've ever had with the TM is the restored tusk area. I do believe it is an authentic cast, just not a production original.


So the answer is yes. Which goes against everything you write here.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:44 am 
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SithLord wrote:
So? Where were you in that thread? You had every opportunity to provide your expert commentary to the contrary.


Probably somewhere shaking my head trying to extract the huge amount of BS from my brain that I read.

SithLord wrote:
And it's semantics.

Do you even know what semantics means?

SithLord wrote:
I never stated what the TD ANH is....I stated what I THINK it is. You on the other hand, always state what your helmets ARE.


I don't really talk about my vader helmets to much. Unless I'm prompted and then still not very much.
You on the other hand, CAN'T STOP.
I believe it is all a vein effort into deluding other's into believing your hopes and dreams of owning an original.


SithLord wrote:
That is the difference here. I think the TD ANH could be from the production and as far as Brian Muir is concerned it is original but not from the original mold.


I think Brian Muir probably knows as much about vader helmets as AA knows about trooper helmets. And you fancy them both.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:50 am 
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SithLord wrote:
What record? The record according to Gino? Well there's no substance to it because Gino never shares.


Yes, according to me. Just because you can't see the big picture doen't mean it lacks substance. Also, I actually share a lot. But only with people I'm comfortable sharing with.
I even share some things with the masses. Just not as much as you'd probably like because I don't trust you and that's the only way you would get solid info.

SithLord wrote:
They are there to see. Show me a closeup of the mask and dome front and I'll show them to you. Maybe you got them as recasts and are not even aware of them.


That's more funny and ironic than you will ever know. :lol


SithLord wrote:
So the answer is yes. Which goes against everything you write here.


I don't see how.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:59 am 
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Quote:
SithLord wrote:
And it's semantics.

Do you even know what semantics means?



Main Entry:
se·man·tics
\si-ˈman-tiks\
Function:
noun plural but singular or plural in construction
Date:
1893

1: the study of meanings: a: the historical and psychological study and the classification of changes in the signification of words or forms viewed as factors in linguistic development b (1): semiotic (2): a branch of semiotic dealing with the relations between signs and what they refer to and including theories of denotation, extension, naming, and truth 2: general semantics3 a: the meaning or relationship of meanings of a sign or set of signs; especially : connotative meaning b: the language used (as in advertising or political propaganda) to achieve a desired effect on an audience especially through the use of words with novel or dual meanings


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SithLord wrote:
I never stated what the TD ANH is....I stated what I THINK it is. You on the other hand, always state what your helmets ARE.


I don't really talk about my vader helmets to much. Unless I'm prompted and then still not very much.
You on the other hand, CAN'T STOP.
I believe it is all a vein effort into deluding other's into believing your hopes and dreams of owning an original.


That's what this has been about all along. You can believe frankly what you want to believe. You are always free to start your own threads, but it seems your only contribution are threads such as these, and the occasional progress thread on three Vaders.

Well I'm prompting you now to talk about your ANH helmet because it's not what you think or say it is.

Quote:
SithLord wrote:
That is the difference here. I think the TD ANH could be from the production and as far as Brian Muir is concerned it is original but not from the original mold.


I think Brian Muir probably knows as much about vader helmets as AA knows about trooper helmets. And you fancy them both.



Well I guess we should all listen to you instead.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:07 am 
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Quote:
SithLord wrote:
They are there to see. Show me a closeup of the mask and dome front and I'll show them to you. Maybe you got them as recasts and are not even aware of them.


That's more funny and ironic than you will ever know. :lol



I'm still waiting.

Quote:
SithLord wrote:
So the answer is yes. Which goes against everything you write here.


I don't see how.



Why would you be interested in TM's dome? You question his research and the original nature of his casting yet you asked for a copy. I thought your ESB helmet was from an original and the ultimate? I guess not.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:08 am 
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SithLord wrote:
That's what this has been about all along. You can believe frankly what you want to believe. You are always free to start your own threads, but it seems your only contribution are threads such as these, and the occasional progress thread on three Vaders.


I believe in quality over quantity.

SithLord wrote:
Well I'm prompting you now to talk about your ANH helmet because it's not what you think or say it is.


I'm not interested or concerned with you evaluation of my props as I don't respect your knowledge or opinions.
Also, I'm not saying that my helmet is a production original, which in my book is a major big deal and a big no-no if that is not the case.
You can say you think it is, but a line is crossed when you state it as fact.


SithLord wrote:
That is the difference here. I think the TD ANH could be from the production and as far as Brian Muir is concerned it is original but not from the original mold.


gino wrote:
I think Brian Muir probably knows as much about vader helmets as AA knows about trooper helmets. And you fancy them both.


SithLord wrote:
Well I guess we should all listen to you instead.


Exactly! Think of all the energy and money you could have saved if you had only listened to me back then instead of AA.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:15 am 
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GINO wrote:

I believe in quality over quantity.



Like your TK helmets....how many Gino or Gino/CRPROPS TK helmets are there out there? And you keep coming up with the newest "ultimate" version.

Quote:
SithLord wrote:
Well I'm prompting you now to talk about your ANH helmet because it's not what you think or say it is.


I'm not interested or concerned with you evaluation of my props as I don't respect your knowledge or opinions.
Also, I'm not saying that my helmet is a production original, which in my book is a major big deal and a big no-no if that is not the case.
You can say you think it is, but a line is crossed when you state it as fact.


Well this is a forum to discuss authenticity, among other things. You've shown the helmet and it's there for everyone to see. Now you take responsibilty, as I have, for arguments to the contrary of what you think it is. And it has nothing to do with my opinion, it has everything to do with how your helmet looks. I know you don't say it's an original, so then what is it? And you quoted me...did I say what you think it is? Nope.


gino wrote:
SithLord wrote:
Well I guess we should all listen to you instead.


Exactly! Think of all the energy and money you could have saved if you had only listened to me back then instead of AA.



Right, and BOUGHT from you instead of from AA. That's what this is all about.


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