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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 7:10 am 
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Hmmmmm - I haven't read EVERYTHING yet but it does look to me that the C-scar is very much a structure and nothing to do with paint. Just from what is put forward here. But true, that scar is less defined on SL/DJ BUT all the other crap and surface stuff seems to be shared by both masks.

So...a thought.

Has anyone considered that the original Vader helmet was cast up in black gel coat and NOT painted?!!! The scar looks to me to be something that could happen in gel coat - it doesn't look like a paint-screwed-up artifact to me and it could easily be fixed as an obvious blemish with some sand paper before remolding.

Dome has paint streaks on it but have we ever seen any on the face?

Gel coat surface?

Would certainly save some time in production too.

Might explain why this scratch alone could have been worked on by Baker as simply something that bugged him or whatever.

Someone's got to talk to him at some point. We've got to get a lead.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 12:47 pm 
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John, the face is spray painted gloss black. Not brush painted except for areas that were touched up. The sheen and shade of black on the entire face matches that of the helmet. The helmet has definitely got brush strokes on it.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 2:53 pm 
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I'm still holding on to the scratch idea because it makes the most sense, based on what it looks like. On my casting, anyway, it is not faint or dulled down... painted over, it is a fairly sharp scratch. It's not one side is high, the other side is low... like on the TM, it is both sides are basically even with a canyon between. This is not an added detail, or augmented in ANY way out of the ILM/Baker mold, and I believe that owners of the SL can also probably see this clearly. Look at it in direct daylight if you have the opportunity. It's been said that the scratch was touched up before the KE tour, as well. I went thru my pics yesterday and found the scratch at least in the Corbis pics. Faint, but it's there.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 3:06 pm 
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SithLord wrote:
Check the front/side view at high resolution of the image of the mask taken at ILM. I see a lower boundary. Obviously it is not clear on the SL in that part, but that doesn't rule out what it could be.


I see a slight color difference from the scratch toward the nose, but no kind of line like a crack in paint. Also, in the same pics I see the harsh light source on the left of the photo, and yet as the mask is turned away towards shadow, the scratch shows up. If it was a ledge, I don't think it would show up like that with that lightsource.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 3:08 pm 
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It's even more faint, but still present, on the repainted helmet. And when we say repainted... it really is misleading, as the work seems minor and just to make things look prettier, but basically not covering much of the surface details, just softening them and removing some of the paint strokes. If the Baker mold was of the Tantive look, does it have all the paint strokes all across the crown, the right mouth wall, and does it have the damaged right tusk tube near the convergence? I've not seen any of that in any of the pictures of Baker mold casts and those seems to be the areas that the repaint work concentrated the most on fixing (repairing to a degree the damage on the right cheek and tube).

Repainting something really doesn't mean covering ALL details, otherwise, whenever we paint these casts - UK style and RB style - we would ALL cover up all those details, as our casts are from the PAINTED original molded at two different times. That's simply not the case, so saying the repainted helmet cannot have original surface details still intact, though slightly softened, and that their presence on the RB mold casts is indicative of Tantive specs, when other details are missing or soft and corresponding with a later stage, would be wrong.

But again. I can only go by what I see in the pictures, as I do not own an RB mold cast. The RB casts lack something the TM has, but the TM also lacks a lot the SL, for instance, has, due to the work done to it before it was painted. That much is certain that it is NOT a perfect UK mold lineage cast. I know for a fact that there's something out there that's better than all we've seen so far. Can't all have been reworked/damaged/destroyed. The future still holds some great promises of awesome discoveries.

I can't wait to see the details that would be on a straight out of the UK mold cast would be... that would be so awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 5:43 pm 
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One thing we also have to consider is that some techs use mould release agents.......which can build on the surface of the subsequent castings. some guys spray it on, some guys brush it on. Brush strokes in the paint are so so faint, that something as simple as releasing agent could mask them. Not trying to muck the waters, just wanted to mention it as a possibility.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 5:57 pm 
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vaderdentist wrote:
One thing we also have to consider is that some techs use mould release agents.......which can build on the surface of the subsequent castings. some guys spray it on, some guys brush it on. Brush strokes in the paint are so so faint, that something as simple as releasing agent could mask them. Not trying to muck the waters, just wanted to mention it as a possibility.

Oh, that's understandable. But we have many casts from the RB mold from different times and by different people.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 6:56 pm 
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Right on. What was bugging me though is - why is the helmet brushed black whereas the face seems to have no brushstrokes (I think) in the black areas?

Not addicted to this idea by any stretch but do we know FOR SURE that the face was sprayed black?

C-scar really looks like damage to me that has nothing to do with paint.

Hmmm.

Wish I could focus more now - wifey and lunch are hovering.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 7:03 pm 
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Wifey and lunch are more important. :thumbsup

I think the "brush strokes" on the dome are misleading. My take is that it's just fingerprints and dulling spray being poorly wiped off, 'cause in some scenes it looks as clean and shiny as the later footprint ceremony look, where we know the faceplate was at least repaired/repainted. The dome may just have needed a good cleaning with soap, nothing more. Who knows.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 7:40 pm 
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darthjones wrote:
Right on. What was bugging me though is - why is the helmet brushed black whereas the face seems to have no brushstrokes (I think) in the black areas?

Not addicted to this idea by any stretch but do we know FOR SURE that the face was sprayed black?

C-scar really looks like damage to me that has nothing to do with paint.

Hmmm.

Wish I could focus more now - wifey and lunch are hovering.



For what it's worth, the TD ANH mask is sprayed black.

Just a reminder for those still clinging to the idea that the RB mold photo indicated there was no scratch on the mold (like on that starwarsprops website), and there is....as I could easily replicate the same image with the SL, showing the same lower boundary curve of the L as on the RB mold.

Image


I'll defer to you Zuka if you really think the scar is just a scratch. But there is more than just a scratch that appears to change during the production from the time of the Death Star scenes to the Tantive IV shooting, at least to me.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 8:22 pm 
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I'm just matching pictures and making suggestions as to what it might be... I don't really know for sure, but until I see something more solid I'm sticking with a scratch. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 12:22 am 
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There were definitely paint streaks on the dome in the RB mold. Big streaky streaks. But why brush the dome and spray the face?!!! Seems to me that they would spray the dome if they are going to spray the face.

Unless the face worked as a polished (somewhat) gel coat and the dome did not.

Anyway, just throwing it out there.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 12:32 am 
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I'm sure the face was brushed on the screen mask, too, at least the silver.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 1:14 am 
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I've often wondered if the metallic gray on the faceplate is not intentional weathering but, rather, just a quick-and-dirty paint job. Here's my reasoning why.

First, we know that Vader was originally painted black. When it became apparent that the masks' features weren't showing up on camera well enough, the mask was given the two-tone alternating paint scheme so that the facets of the face would be more visible.

When painting using a brush and, especially, painting over black, the brush is going to create thin and thick areas of paint depending on the bristles and the gaps between the bristles. That is assuming you don't apply a gray base coat first to even things out.

The scarred cheek has a bit of a dash of metallic gray on the edge, just under the cheek corner. Is that weathering or, rather, someone had touched still-drying paint and smudged the cheek by accident?

There are a few paint inconsistencies that show the metallic gray application simply was not a precision job - and perhaps we've mistaken it for "weathering".


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 2:28 am 
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Absolutely... :thumbsup


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