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 Post subject: Armor Comparison
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:29 pm 
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I'm trying to get some details, demensions, and pictures about a few of the sets of armor out there.

I've heard good things about the GT 2007 armor. I contacted SA about his because he has hte 2004 pictured I believe and he says it's the newest armor produced but doesn't know the "model" name. I've also gotten some ok pictures from SP but none are straight on.

I've seen the karline-2000 armor on the bay. Looks nice, buy I don't know the measurments.

I've heard of vadermonkey and am more familiar with his other props. Any Vader armor info would be great.

And lastly I've acutally got pictures and measurments of the JB armor.
Image
So no problem here except that I'm not quite Prowse sized. I'm 6'2" 195 lbs with a 42" chest.

Thanks for any info and help you could post or send my way.
Terrell
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:12 pm 
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If you want for display and want a movie sized armor, then go for GH or SPFX. They are more expensive but they are worth every penny. JB is nice also and movie sized. GT stuff is not really accurate.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:09 pm 
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Okay, so here's the thing about armor.

Armor can look fully accurate on the front.

However, the thing that makes or breaks armor is how wearable it is.

The most important thing about the armor is the shape of the arch as the armor goes over your shoulders and over to your back. If there is too much slack, then even the most accurate looking armor will leave an inaccurate, large, wide and unsightly neck gap.

The armor needs to properly arch over your shoulders ergonomically (i.e. there should be a slope) and then when it's on your back, there should be curved back towards the center slightly. A lot of armor is basically a bent "V" to where the neck opening becomes wider and wider from front to back. Again, the design may be screen-accurate but the shape is all wrong.

Having said this, the measurement system is a little difficult because a lot of it is a "feel" thing.

I'm a 42" chest size, but the Karline-2000 is not the best fit. It has the smallest neck gap, but once worn, I find it pushing against my collarbone. Then, when viewed from the side, the Vader helmet appears big while my chest appears small. So there definitely needs to be more of an upside-down and wider "U" shape going on here.

The angle of photography can be a bit deceptive too. The Karline armor worried me at first because it looked like it would still leave an unsightly neck gap, but in reality, it didn't whatsoever.

However, armor that looked like it wouldn't give a neck gap sure enough did.

Again, when photographed directly from above, armor should not "V" out too much. IMHO, the neckline should be a "U" and not a big wide "V". When you examine old photos of how the armor's neckline fit in relation to the helmet's neckline, you'll understand what I mean.

A lot of what we've been told by vendors as to how "screen accurate" armor shoudl be may have been propaganda, or they didn't know any better. The shape of a lot of "screen accurate" armor -- where there is too much slack as it goes over the shoulders, resulting not only in a big neckline but there is barely enough material to hold onto your back -- is consistent of someone casting original armor but placing the casting on the ground to complete a cure. In its not-fully-cured state, it starts to sag under its own weight, thereby turning the side arch shape from an upside-down "U" to more like an upside-down "J".

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Last edited by CSMacLaren on Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:20 pm 
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Well, I can only speak about the SPFX armor, as that's the only one I have, currently - still can't believe it... - and it fits like a charm. Doesn't have that ugly hump look in the back where the bracers or whatever they're called extend nearly horizontally out from the shoulders... it follows the shape of my shoulders and down over the top of my back and shoulder blade snugly. However... I don't have as broad shoulders as it requires, but that doesn't worry me much, since I'm not a costumer and won't ever need to wear it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:37 pm 
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For what its worth, I've never seen any vendor selling cast off original armor that wasn't recast from the Jeff armor (go on down the line the list of offenders). GH, JB, SPFX, etc...
Also, the Jeff armor has severely suffered warpage and creep making the curvature incorrect in multiple places.
Basicly what I'm saying is that there are no vendors selling unaltered, un-deformed, cast off original chest armor.


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 Post subject: Re: Armor Comparison
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:18 pm 
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Dark Lord wrote:

And lastly I've acutally got pictures and measurments of the JB armor.
Image
So no problem here except that I'm not quite Prowse sized. I'm 6'2" 195 lbs with a 42" chest.



Yeah, that's my pic of one of my sets of armor....that's my old duvet :wink: !

It's a JB set and it fits me well...I'm 6'4" and 250lbs.

That said, I agree with GINO....there's no perfect casting out there (that's readily available)...they're all distorted to one degree or another.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:21 pm 
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Which means that you gotta find the one that fits you... which is difficult since it's not like you can just walk into a store and try them on.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:26 pm 
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So regarding KevVader's shot, I've seen photos of JB armor paired up with a helmet that is either a JB or an SPFX.

The neck of the helmet falls right into the neckline of the armor.

Guessing their proprotions, the armor may be 19-21 inches wide from front corner to corner.

Based on this, I wouldn't go with this suit of armor. The armor goes into a "V" shape once it goes past yoru collarbone. It spreads outward and wider.

Now some argue that you'd wear your cape in such a way that it conceals this, but I find the photos of Prowse wearing the armor to show everything fitting snuggly -- not like this.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:29 pm 
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NoHumorMan wrote:
Which means that you gotta find the one that fits you... which is difficult since it's not like you can just walk into a store and try them on.


Ain't that the truth, which makes it difficult since I plan to costume in it. So do the vader experts think it's better to have accurate armor thats too big, or less accurate armor thats proportionate?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:50 am 
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Excellent question. And here's my take on it.

Image

First, notice that with screen-accurate armor, the 1" wide bars are roughly the same distanace apart as the width of the dome's flange. This applies not only to Original Trilogy setups but also ROTS.

Now...

Image

(Left: Prowse. Right: I'm not 100% certain this is Prowse. It might be Bob Anderson since the wind blows the cape back and you see a much narrower chest and thinner arms. Here, you see the "hero" facemask and not the "stunt" facemask so we might be thrown off into thinking this is Prowse.)

Now get this.

Below is VaderMonkey's recast of screen-used armor by stuntman Bob Anderson. From corner to corner, it's 14". Note the 1" bars.

Image

(Right: VaderMonkey's armor. Left: "Prowse-sized" armor from an unnamed vendor.)

See how VaderMonkey's stunt armor (worn by Bob Anderson)'s 1" strips line up with the flange. The mask happens to be a Don Post Deluxe. Now the one on the left is supposedly "Prowse-sized" and yet it fails to line up properly! Conclusion: this armor is inaccurate despite its size, period. Also, it's a bad fit: look how big the neckline is compared with the mask's neck!

If the analysis of these photos holds true, the stunt armor is basically a modified Prowse armor but made to be more narrow. Bob Anderson had a more slender build than Prowse. Where the cape is blown back, you see the shoulder bells are not underneath the armor but rather are on the ends of the armor to maximize the upper chest width.

What does this mean? It means you can have BOTH proportionate accuracy AND a size that fits you, provided you are of a build that can fit into such armor in the first place.

Below was my first exposure to "Prowse-sized" and "Cast from originals" armor. The helmet was from the same vendor.

Image

Image

Simply put, there was no way on earth the mask would overlap the armor. As a beginner, the burden was put on me: "Well, this was made to fit David Prowse. You're not Prowse's build, so there's no way this could fit you." Sorry, this is simply incorrect because if I were to set up a Prowse-sized mannequin, there would STILL be an unsightly neck gap. Look at the neckline of the armor: it's at least 10" wide. Look at the neck of the facemask: 8" wide. Explain to me where this difference comes from. It didn't come from Lucasfilm, that's for sure!

And yet when you watch the movie:

Image

(Left: improper armor design. Middle and Right: ESB screen captures of Vader facing front and side view.)

There is NO neck gap between the armor and the mask. The mask overlaps the armor's neckline and conceals it completely.

Image

No neck gap.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b138/ ... met_27.jpg

No neck gap.

"Well, you should pad the back so that the neckline is up to your mask's neckline."

Wrong. Look here:

Image

If I were to follow that advice, I'd be the Hunchback of Notre Dame. Interestingly, I see photos of Hunchbacked costumers and they look terrible!!!

Conclusion: bad armor, warped. Armor should not have so much slack on the shoulders that it opens up and exposes your neck and gives you a woman's neckline. It should further not "V" out as it goes over your shoulders. The neck line should not exceed the width of the neck.

You should therefore expect some degree of accuracy and good fit. Hope this helps.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:28 am 
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Actually it's all much simpler.
There were no smaller stunt sets of armor used in the films.
There was no special Bob Anderson smaller set. I hate hearing that myth.
It was the exact same armor in all 3 films.
If you take accurate, unwarped cast from original armor and an accurate cast from original faceplate, it fits like a glove.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:51 am 
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That was awsome Mac, thanks.

One thing I've noticed looking at the various helmet makers. There seems to be alot of difference in the ammount of neckflare from helmet to helmet. This of course will effect which armor looks best for the total package.

I'm starting to feel like I did trying to fix computers in the mid 90's when nothing was standardized. I understand each maker puts his own touch on the props they create, but wow. There is so much I didn't know that I didn't know about.

Thanks again for all the info for the noob.

Edit: I got interupted in typing my reply and didn't see Gino's post.
Gino if what you say is accurate, and I know that it is about helmet and armor issues, why the different amounts of neck flare between the SPFX, JB, GH, etc...?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:24 am 
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Darkie Lordy,

I believe what Gino says is accurate inasmuch as he has heard, seen, perceived, been told, directly experienced, etc. the Star Wars phenomenon. However it is more difficult to disprove something than it is to prove something. Anyone can prove the sky is blue. To disprove the sky is blue, you have to shoot down any notion of the possibility of the contrary.

In this case, GINO has to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that Stunt Armor cannot possibly exist. So the burden of proof is upon him. A mere word spoken with a quality of authority is insufficient. As always, PHOTOS are a big plus when establishing and backing up statements! :hehe-err

More to the topic, you should still expect reasonably accurate armor that fits your person but that helps you recreate the proportions of Vader. As I pointed out in a previous picture:

Image

... even "Prowse-sized" armor is not truly Prowse-sized. If it's not obvious, the "Prowse-sized" armor appears to be larger than the screen-used armor!

So regarding neck flare.

In this case below, you WISH there was neck flare.

Image

See the size of the armor neckline in relation to the size of the mask's head, let alone the mask's neck!

I trust the point is made! You should try to find something that is reasonably accurate looking but recreates Vaders physical proportions. You can't go wide, else he looks like a line-backer. You can't pad the shoulders, else he looks like he's shrugging and has no idea what or who Padme is.

Now Gino can probably more than easily explain the discrepancies of neck width and neck flare among the Vader vendors, but here is my take on it:

Now when you compare the neck of a 20th Century to an early sequence Don Post Deluxe (only 1,000 were made), there does appear to be a size difference. The Don Post does seem to flare out a wee bit more. The castings later in the Don Post Deluxe series showed the neck to flare out more.

Neck flare isn't bad so long as it covers the neckline. If it's too shot out, it's merely an aesthetic problem. The neck of the mask should lay nicely and neatly on the armor. This won't happen if (1) the armor's over-shoulder arch is misshapen, and/or (2) the neck of the facemask is misshapen.

If a casting hasn't fully cured and is removed from the mold, it is still going through chemical changes whereupon it can still warp and distort. If armor is set on the ground, depending on its uncured state, it might sag under its own weight.

I can't explain the Don Post Deluxe's right neck flare as a product of mold deterioration or degredation. Nobody's been able to give me a definitive answer. Molds will tear with repeated use, yes. But when you cast something, you typically have plaster reinforcement, so the mold will generally give you a reasonably undistorted shape. Perhaps JRX or VaderMonkey can cast some light on the issue.

And some variances could have been deliberate. Many try to duplicate the Tantive IV shots (the scene in Ep. IV where Vader first appears in the Rebel Blockade Runner). The problem with duplicating a screen look is if one does so without factoring in perspective distortion. The closer the camera is to Vader, the larger the center of his face appears, and the smaller his domecap and flanges become. The neck unavoidably seems proportionately wider at certain angles.

Thus some Vendors have tweaked their castings in order to make them more accurate inasmuch as they perceive something as accurate. When you tweak one thing and you're oblivious to its interrelationships with other aspects of Vader's face, it throws off certain proportions. That's why certain facemasks look "on" and some look "off". And those well studied in the props can tell, "Oh, that's a Fyberdyne" versus a GINO, versus a Ghost Host, versus a Don Post or a 20th Century.

Unfortunately, what this means is that you have to shop more carefully. Armor from one vendor might not work with the mask of another vendor. And if you do a one-stop-shop with one single vendor, make sure they line up. I've seen one of the most acclaimed mask makers helmet placed against his own armor, and it was an ill fit. Even some vendors recast other's work, thereby perpetuating the problem.

What it comes down to is, what is your own size, and what do you need to do in order to approximate Vader's physical appearance?

In some cases, you might be able to modify the armor. However, as shown in above photos, certain armor that isn't accurate to begin with isn't necessarily helped through simple modifications.

I can take something like Aquamend and close up the neck gap. I'd have to eradicate the paint of that black center area, and then repaint it. I'd have a more snug fit without having to rely on foam padding to create a shrugging hunchbacked look. However, that center black area of the screen-used armor armor does not flare out nearly as wide as a lot of vendor armor, so while I can modify a vendor's neckline, it doesn't alter the width of their black center area.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:23 am 
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Quote:
Actually it's all much simpler.
There were no smaller stunt sets of armor used in the films.
There was no special Bob Anderson smaller set. I hate hearing that myth.
It was the exact same armor in all 3 films.
If you take accurate, unwarped cast from original armor and an accurate cast from original faceplate, it fits like a glove.


Better watch the films again my friend.

There is a wide set and a narrow set most commonly worn in stunt scenes with BA hence the nickname. This narrow set can be seen in the ESB/ROTJ fight sequence and the scene in Jedi where Vader is asking Admiral Piett about the shuttles code clearance, and the end of Jedi during the unmasking. (Sebastiain Shaw scene) I dont have a great pic of that but it is clear on film.

Pretty glaring oversight for someone with such a cocky attitude....let me know if you need me to photoshop in a ruler for you.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:40 am 
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If I come across cocky it's because it's aggrivating arguing with people who just simply do not know better.
THERE IS NO STUNT ARMOR. It's all the same stuff. The only difference is the edges were ground down on a regular set. It is not smaller overall like a shrunken set of armor.
Cocky? When your vader (any version) looks better than mine, then you can question my word. How about that? Otherwise, you be smart to listen as you might learn something.
The reason my stuff looks like it does frankly is because I know more about the film used vader costumes than you. Part of the reason I know more is from the pieces I've been lucky enough to have access to and own. Another reason is that I've been focusing on vader for approx. 14 years.
Don't take my word for something, just look at my stuff, compare it to yours, and then decide what to believe.


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