A dark spiral of negativity and condescension.

It is up to you, the member, to decide what this place should be and what you want to bring to it – whether it be positive or negative.

I helped start and build this forum, so will fight and defend it if it is wrongfully attacked. It’s my baby and I feel personally hurt when people speak badly about it, but something happened recently that made me open my eyes and look at myself and this forum in a new light. I brought it upon myself and I learned something about myself that I can honestly say shocked me, saddened me and made me feel utterly ashamed, and is the cause of my going to leave the hobby for a while, and may not come back, as I seriously have to rethink whether I even belong and what I really want out of the hobby and what I’m actually able to give back.

I apologize for my absence, but I’ve spent the last several days going over old threads and trying to find the truth of this forum and everything that’s happened since I came into the hobby and I must say that what I found saddened me. This place was built on the foundations of openness, sharing, free speech and no one fearing the excessive mod intervention that is seen on several other forums – not just prop hobby forums, but everywhere – with editing and deletion of posts, but it seems that some confuse this right of free speech and freedom with being able to say anything they want and do anything they want without repercussions. Free speech is just that – to have no fear of censorship – but, everywhere in the world that also comes with a heightened sense of responsibility towards the one saying or posting something. He or she is solely responsible and accountable for what they are saying and it is up to them to decide whether they want to add something positive or something negative to the ether, but regardless, it will shine on the forum either way: either degenerating it or making it prosper.

I’m not saying what is said is wrong or right, but there is a clear trend of acting pretty much exactly or worse than what the opposing side is accused of, in terms of condescension, cyber-bullying, and adding negativity to the hobby. I can understand the frustrations behind some of the posts and their reasons for being posted, but there’s also a fine line that can be easily crossed where it turns from genuine recounting of what’s bothering the poster, to where the post turns into a general bash-fest – I am as guilty as anyone to add to that in a negative way.

I feel personally hurt every time something negative is posted about The Den on other forums, but having seriously thought things through and looked at dozens of old threads, both here and on the RPF, I have come to the conclusion that yes, indeed, we have in part brought it upon ourselves.

What I realized during that infamous eFX thread, where I behaved absolutely questionable and came into their show-off thread of their baby with guns blazing – the absolute wrong arena for all that, that should have been saved for another time, another thread and not dumping on this fine new offering - we have a chance to start over, to start afresh, rethink ourselves and what we want to bring to the hobby and what we want The Den to stand for.

We are spiralling out of control, but we have a chance to redeem ourselves and bring this place back to where it should be and where it belongs: as a shining star of openness and sharing of Vader information and pictures, while leaving the ego, the petty, resentful, condescending and above all else, the absolute worst at the door.

NagelFan observed exactly this, but said it much better than I am:
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Sorry for putting you on the spot, but seeing as you are a newcomer, you have a fresh perspective on things and are able to make precise observations about what is going on that us old-timers with our entrenched sensibilities and comfortabilities may not even be aware of or realize are happening. You hit the nail on the head. Please forgive some of us old-timers as we come from a time where things were far more polarized and aggressive and our inability to apparently shake those habits completely. And hell... I’m still a newbie in some of the real old-timers’ eyes who also frequent these boards... so it is many years of bad influences and trench warfare where several benefited from sharp lines and trenches between the groups. I know I haven’t rid myself of that old-school thinking completely... but I still think The Den is a step in the right direction.

We can change this and now is the time to do it. I would wish for this place to be seen by others, the way I see it in my mind and in my heart. Let’s all help turning this around and make this place greater than it is already and not let it sink into the dark pool of hate and arrogance. We are greater than this. If it cannot be accomplished, then what is the point of carrying on and the shame I’m feeling now towards myself will only grow and be reinforced.

I may be back once I can face myself and all of you again, but until then, help make this place what it should be.

I wasn't here from the beginning, but I know what you mean. I do appreciate this place for being the place I can blow off steam after dealing with a few particular individuals elsewhere. But I am sure I say more than I should some of the time. It doesn't mean it's not true, either, but sometimes things don't need to be rehashed forevermore. This is a good reminder to keep things in check. Thanks.

Well I've said it before, and I'll say it again. From day 1 I noticed a great core of guys on this forum. I lurked on the RPF and some other boards for quite some time, but decided this was the place to throw my hat into the ring and become a first time ever member of any type of forum. I've made some very good friends hear, and have always been honored to have other members trust bestowed on me. I very much understand your being angry when the Den is attacked Carsten, this place and the people here have and will always be special to me. Hang in there buddy...we all sometimes need to find ourselfes again. Hell, I've been looking for 42yrs now.

Just don't ever forget who does 99.9% of the attacking towards the Den. It's the same guys each and every time, no matter the discussion. I got a PM from one of them explaining how he gets all worked up when he thinks of the Den because he thinks it stands for Anti RPF Establishment. I never thought that. I told him so, I told him why this is a more relaxed Vader discussing location, I told him it was also a place to not have to interact with you know who because he'd been banned. If I wanted to interact with that guy, I'd go join Propaganda. Thanks but no thanks. If I want to have a discussion about Vader, actually learn something I didn't know already, this is the place. I can speak candidly, I can provide possible leads and all without being verbally raked over the coals if my idea doesn't agree with someone else's. That's a cool thing. That's the value of this forum and don't ever forget it. It has nothing to do with those who hate the Den, it has to do with our hobby and hanging out together and discussing props and family and work and whatever the hell we like because we like each other's company. We aren't under some freakish dictatorship type administration. If I speak my opinion about a particular helmet, and some other bloke doesn't agree with my opinion, I don't have a fear that I'm going to be banned or attacked from the side by the same 6 guys each time. RPF is fantastic if I choose to avoid Vader discussions. That ain't cool. Vader is the #1 hot topic in this hobby. Why be pitted against some nut job with a hard on for confrontation when any word starting with a capital V is uttered. Screw that. This is a little oasis, a place to wash that other crap off of you after a long day.

Vote for me for president, we will invade an all new country and kick the shit out of it too!!!!!!Who's with me........LOL. One second, gotta tuck the soap box carefully away, behind the rice krispies......there.

I think those who talk bad about this board are jealous in reality ...

I don't participate everyday but I can say with certainty that the Prop Den board is a warm and pleasant place with a wealth of informations .

Here it's the reverse of the RPF board , out there we are attacked if we have a different idea of what "Godfather" says , here we can discuss and share without fear of being attacked .

Don't take anyone's comments as saying the RPF is all bad, because it is not. I frequent the costume section and the general props section quite often and of course my favorite the Studio Scale Model section. There are enough positives to far outweight the negatives within an RPF Vader thread. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Yes I agree ,

I wanted talk about the Vader section , not the RPF board in generally

Hey even in that instance, if you can learn to ignore like 6 guys, even the Vader stuff is very rewarding. It might be mixed into a brawl, but what you learn about props is incredible.

For the future I will try to consider with every post whether I'm part of the solution or part of the problem. For far too long, I've been part of the problem and I want to change that. The future holds so many finds promises of revelations and discoveries that I needn't worry so much and getting pulled into personal feuds. It drains the soul and brings you into places where it is no fun being.

There is wisdom in your views on all this TMG. I've been overly careful of what I have posted today, I've been trolled all day by folks like Qui, but in the end, taking the high ground achieves more and costs less. I can't promise I can lay off every time, but I'll give it my best. If I made you TM guys look less than stellar by feuding with God-Complex, I apologize.

Well, no, I'm not just talking about the eFX and TM debacle. I'm talking more general regarding all the 6 years I've been part of the hobby. I know you guys have been part of the hobby much longer than I have, and I do know that habits arise that are hard to shake and we may not even be aware of them. But I'm seeing a whole lot of "if you poop in my thread or on my stuff, I'll go poop on yours" happening all the time... from everybody. Like... you can't just be able to show off or appreciate something nice - it will always be ruined somehow. Which is why I think so many people don't want to show off their stuff, as they've seen what happens when other people show off their stuff. Endless arguments and idiots from all sides sissy-fighting over scraps of fiberglass and tiny, tiny details. Both sides being too effing proud to take the high road and not give in to the temptation to stick it to the other - perhaps in return for him or her sticking it to you. It's an endless circle of retaliation and as far as I've been able to read through threads in these last couple of days: both/all sides are to blame.

What I'm trying to do here and hope it's not misunderstood to just be about the eFX disaster I helped add to, is to try to open the eyes on everyone who's entrenched in their ways that they may not see what they are doing may only help to fuel the fire, instead of helping to create a pleasant, nurturing and whole community, instead of a divided one. Sure, there are people you may feel have wronged you and you feel angry and the need to lash out, but does that ever bring you peace or does it not just end up bringing you more pain?

To put it in a Star Wars context... I feel this current debate is like Luke and Vader's talk on Endor, with the best quote from that whole scene being "Let go of your hate", to which Vader just kept to his ways, refusing to see any possibility of change.

The real life lesson that comes to mind here is: If you haven't got anything nice to say, STFU. (slightly reworded)

I think that Art is a really nice guy but for some reason he feels the need to protect GINO at every opportunity.

I take issue with GINO as I think that he is a liar and will say anything to deride others work to elevate his own, there are numerous examples of this on every forum - CfO, TE, Cyberman, GH the list goes on and on....

A lot of members here feel the same way about GINO and recognise this behaviour and therefore find it difficult to understand why Art protects him at every opportunity. The Prop Den is one place that these people can vent their frustration and at the same time Art has no control over it, so he vilifies the Prop Den at every turn.

That is my 2 cents anyway...

JoeR

This might not even be relevant, but bear with me.

In 2007, I had an emergency appendectomy four days before our city kicked us off of our land (eminent domain). My life-size Vader stood in my bedroom as everything else went out. My last night in my childhood bedroom it was only the Vader and I, with me sleeping on the floor with just a blanket and pillow. When we got into the rental, the Vader was the first thing up. When our new house was finally finished and ready to move into, Vader was once again the first thing up. Vader went through a few changes during that time, but not much.

Everything through that time was so chaotic, it really forced me to remember why I built it in the first place. All the cutting up of the metal bed frame and bolting it back together to make a massive poseable mannequin, mixing my paints to get a grey that I really liked for the mask and armour even though I had never painted anything before in my life.... Complete insanity all for some kind of monument to my late brother, who loved Star Wars and Darth Vader especially. All this and I don't even tell people why I built it. I'm worried it would sound too insane. Maybe it is, but somehow it made sense to me.

Don't get me wrong, details are still fun, and I'd love to have a TM or an eFX. Even though I'll never consider it "finished", and my imperfect Vader probably wouldn't be the envy of anyone here.... Still, I have a 7' Darth Vader standing in my room, and that's pretty fuckin' cool. That's what my brother would say anyway.

All true TMG, I do tend to let jabs from that camp drag me into the muck. For a long while I was able to keep my distance and just not interact, but I'm also very protective of my friends. It physically causes me pain to see someone get burned at the stake over a Lie by the witchhunters. Call me human I guess. I can make no promises to be different when under attack, but I can at least try.

I will say this and it is very true. If all the good guys could simply put those guys on ignore, that hurts them far more than jabbing back at them. It absolutely infuriates the ones who are doing it for the sake of starting trouble. I won't even name names here as you all know who I'm talking about. Ignoring people like that actually dismisses them in a way that is not confrontational, yet it deprives them of the oxygen to keep that fire stoked. It's hard to just provide a differing opinion without addressing what they have said, but if we could word it in a way that doesn't even acknowledge that they made the statement.....................but just make our own points as if they don't even exist, it might have a far better outcome and we might gain many more friends rather than stoking the same old hatred.

It sucks because if it's to work, we have to do ALL the work. You know as well as I, the AA jabs, the TM jabs the GH jabs, the SL jabs etc etc.............those things will never end with that bunch. It's gotta boil down to exactly how much you wanna work to remain sane. I mean if we want to interact with any Vader content at the RPF, we're in for a shit storm.

Mate, that's exactly IT. You nailed it. It may have seemed completely left field, but it is actually exactly what I'm trying to say here. What brings us all together and what makes this hobby interesting and fun.

Let me ask this to anyone. Why are you part of the hobby? What do you get out of it? What do you feel you can bring the hobby? Do you feel happy?

One thing's for sure: we are all passionate.

I grew up with a very simple life philosophy: if you fall down, get right back up. If someone pulls you down, don't fault them, just continue with what you love and prove them wrong by being a better man.

I've recently proven to myself that I was not the better man. That was a shock I could have lived without and I'd love to be able to take it back, but that's not possible now. All I can do is strive to not fall down that pit again and try to be that better man and concentrate on what I love.

No one likes a whiner. Even if they are right in what they are saying, they are still whining. Everyone needs to vent sometimes, but again, think of what it is you bring to everyone by doing so, and what you bring to yourself. Do you feel better after having vented, or, do you actually feel worse and do the venting actually help spiral things into something even worse than it was?

How other forums is run is really not the business of The Den, never was. Just as it is none of the other forums' business how The Den is run. I would kick anyone in the face if they vented about how The Den is run on other forums, I know I have had my talks with Art about that previously, and I can understand his frustration about people venting about how the RPF is run on here and on other forums. You may not like how things are done, but, then why do you go to that place? It's really that simple. Don't like the establishment, don't go drinking there. And vice versa. It really is a lack of respect towards both the people there and the people here to bring issues from elsewhere into this place, since there's absolutely nothing we can do about it anyway. All it does is making your issues into The Den issues against that other forum... and look what that has accomplished.

Do what you love, sculpt, build cool armors, strive for perfection, enjoy the hobby and the friendships and don't let yourself get pulled down by people who disagree with you and piss on you or whatever. Find the truth about why you are in the hobby and what makes you keep coming back. I seriously doubt it's the bickering, the personal attacks, and all the negativity.

Stay true to what you love and people will enjoy what you show even more.