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 Post subject: What do you know about this helmet?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:56 pm 
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Hopefully you can see or open this picture (sorry if it belongs to someone here as I can't remember where I got it.) please, let me know if you cannot open it.

Can anyone tell me what is known about this picture? - specifically, the actual helmet on the right. Is this a recently (within a few years) taken photograph? Is this helmet's origin in question?

John


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Last edited by Darth Obsession on Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about this helmet?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:42 pm 
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Hi John, the one on the right was taken at Elstree Studios and it is the original ANH screen-used mask. There is some debate about when the photo was taken (I guess that depends on how new the carpet really is). It wasn't taken recently not by a long shot but my theory is around or after ESB, but not after ROTJ.

The one on the left is a full head sculpt that was on ebay years ago, and it is not original at least in my own estimation and when I showed Brian Muir the photos from the auction years ago, he also didn't think it was original. It is compelling however.

I'm curious why you ask?

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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about this helmet?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:19 pm 
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Well, now that you asked... It seems that I remember reading somewhere here, or maybe on RPF, that this (helmet or image, not sure which) had surfaced not too long ago, and there seemed to be some debate at time, of whether or not this was an actual 'production' helmet. Some thought it was a copy. Someone made note about 'grey eye lenses'...anyway... the first time I saw this picture, I instantly recognized this mask as an authentic original production made mask. But...(and this is where it gets sticky)...I have to question that is a 'screen used', since I have seriously studied every frame 'still paused', with the blue-ray, on the wide-screen and every screen cap I can find and I can't find a single image that does not have the battle damage on the 'black side' cheek bone, and dark semi-circular blotches on the sides of the neck. It/they also show a bunching up of the paint in the lower left quadrant of the 'grey side' cheek bone. This mask shows none of that, however, the paint and 'tells' exactly match that of the helmet that Kermit Eller wore for original publicty photos and the Oscars'. I also beleive it to be the same helmet from the Mann's theater premere. But I can only attach 3 pics. To me this picture does not look very old, If it is not, then I'd say an original ANH still exists almost in original form.

John


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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about this helmet?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:48 pm 
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I'm a bit puzzled by some of the labels you are attributing the mask. Could you show more clearly what areas you refer to?

I often wondered when this was photographed, but it would make sense it was photographed after the repaint. Perhaps when it came back to the UK after the tours for the production of ESB.

I personally believe it is the ANH screen mask - one of the last pictures of it before it was used for the ESB production and turned ESB.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about this helmet?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:25 am 
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The pictures I used are the best I can find. I don't know if you are able to open my attachments, as they say 'not downloaded yet', and I don't know how to change that. If you can't open them, plese let me know. I know Thomas was able to, but I was 'on line' at the time. In this attachment, I've drawn out what I am talking about. The drawing is only meant only as a guide and not as any proof itself.

Attachment:
specific markings.png


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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about this helmet?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:30 am 
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Some of those markings appear on fan-sourced castings as well so those by themselves don't indicate that it is the original mask. TM found the photos including that one of the original mask when he visited Elstree a few years back. The mask was lying next to an Indy whip in the uncropped version of the photo. The production of Raiders was in '79, which is when I like to think the photo was taken. There is some indication the original ANH mask was used in ESB and coverted to a ROTJ mask by the time of ROTJ. I think we are all agreeing it is the original mask, the question is how recent is the photo and, as Carsten commented, it couldn't be recent if the mask is seen in ROTJ with its chin vent cut out larger.

Also the original mask went through two repaints, one affecting only certain areas between the ANH production and the tour with Kermit (as evidenced by the Corbis photos), and then prior to the Chronicles photo shoot there was a more extensive repaint.

So the Mann's Chinese Theater, Kermit tour, this so-called "Elstree mask", are all the single original screen-used ANH mask.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about this helmet?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:10 pm 
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Ok, so nobody here has seen this helmet in person? And the helmet in the picture has not surfaced in a collection, or on the market for sale or auction? And is therefore, until found, considered 'missing in action'? I would really like to see the helmet (or evidence of..) after it had been converted to ESB, then ROTJ. Is there a thread with pics?


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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about this helmet?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:22 pm 
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The picture on the left has too much lens barrel distortion to accurately
compare.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about this helmet?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:53 pm 
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Darth Obsession wrote:
Ok, so nobody here has seen this helmet in person? And the helmet in the picture has not surfaced in a collection, or on the market for sale or auction? And is therefore, until found, considered 'missing in action'? I would really like to see the helmet (or evidence of..) after it had been converted to ESB, then ROTJ. Is there a thread with pics?

Since search sadly isn't working it took about 15 minutes to sift through from page 441 to page 165 worth of my posts to find this. Staff, please look into this. Thanks.

vp28695.html#p28695

Since then, the RotJ reveal scene Vader may have been identified as another helmet entirely, but nothing solid on that yet.
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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about this helmet?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:32 am 
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You know, I just happened to have cruised that thread several days back, and saw the pic from ROTJ. I got out the DVD, slapped it in to the ol' blueray, still paused that image and studied it real hard, thinking, maybe this is the recent Christie's Vader? I quickly decided 'no'. A close sister maybe, but not the Christie's. Definitely an ESB, with a tusk change and a bit of rework to the dome positioning, but clearly ESB. I think it was the the next day that I came across the pic on the left, and immediately thought, 'that' is the helmet from ROTJ shot. But, I hadn't had the chance to double check it yet. But there is no doubt, there is way too many markers, not to be, I see one more on the left center tooth, about 2/3 of the way to the bottom. But, I will have to re-read that thread, as I didn't catch why you think it is the helmet in the Elstree pic helmet.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about this helmet?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:36 am 
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Oh, I just put it into the list because it was an ESB helmet in RotJ that was painted more ANH style in nature on the nose bridge and wasn't as shiny, so it was an anomaly even for an ESB. Initially I just pondered whether it could be the ESB rolling helmet and since I'd added that to the list because of the details seen there - similar to the one shown in RotJ with the way it was painted and less shiny and LOTS of details on the surface. They are likely not the same helmet, though.

I just added all the oddities seen in the movies into the list, but I couldn't say for sure whether they were the real ANH.

Turns out at least the ESB helmet in RotJ may be another helmet that has been shown on display - and I believe karo found about 5-7 more indicators that matched up between the RotJ and the display helmet than I had pointed out.

And the ESB rolling helmet cannot be the real ANH because of neck and eye socket extensions.

The Christies Vader is soft as heck and is pure RotJ and in my mind looks more like a tour helmet than anything from any of the productions.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about this helmet?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:13 pm 
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Darth Obsession wrote:
Ok, so nobody here has seen this helmet in person?


Not that I know of, no.

Quote:
And the helmet in the picture has not surfaced in a collection, or on the market for sale or auction?


No.

Quote:
And is therefore, until found, considered 'missing in action'?


Yes, or it has been altered to become an ESB/ROTJ mask. There were for years rumors about the original ANH helmet in private hands. I had heard about this collector here or that collector there might have it but it was never really born out to be the case and in my mind just rumor.

Quote:
I would really like to see the helmet (or evidence of..) after it had been converted to ESB, then ROTJ. Is there a thread with pics?



Here's one that touches upon points of view from both Carsten (regarding ROTJ) and myself (regarding ESB) on the topic...

http://www.therpf.com/f9/fate-original-anh-vader-mask-confirmed-esb-100675/


I still think the evidence suggesting the original ANH mask was used in ESB is compelling. Some would argue whether the evidence constitutes proof. Perhaps not. But I still think it is interesting and those who get the upcoming Blu-rays should look further.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about this helmet?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:32 am 
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Thank's Guys. Thomas, I saw your RPF thread about a month ago, and it was one of the reasons I started this thread, was to understand it better. I agree that the helmet worn by Kenny B. definitely could be the one in the ANH screen pic to the left. But, I must question the idea that it is the Elstree. The helmet Kenny is wearing is smooth, glassy finish, paint looks sprayed, just like an ESB or even ROTJ helmet (hence the paint comparison with the ROTJ mask - 245jpg.). The Elstree is hand painted, you can see brush strokes all over it, especially on the face of the 'black' cheek bone and the forehead area, the ROTJ is very smooth and even. I can see that the Elstree has been modified and appears it could be the same one worn in pictures taken with composer MECO in 1977, that appeared in the SW insider #33 and the attached pic below -074 jpg. But the Elstree is pictured with an Indy bull whip. I can think of no reason to do this, unless it was known 'by then' to the person taking the picture, that these were both iconic pieces. Indy's whip did not acheive such status until the summer of 1981, a full year after ESB. So to me the picture could not have been taken prior to that.
Now, has anybody screen capped the Vader at the end of the ESB trailer on the DVD special features disk? I'm not so sure it's the same one in the poster.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about this helmet?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:25 am 
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Darth Obsession wrote:
But the Elstree is pictured with an Indy bull whip. I can think of no reason to do this, unless it was known 'by then' to the person taking the picture, that these were both iconic pieces. Indy's whip did not acheive such status until the summer of 1981, a full year after ESB. So to me the picture could not have been taken prior to that.

That's a bit of a leap of assumption there. They are two main props used for filming two movies with George Lucas attached and since Lucas was responsible for Star Wars, there is already some weight attached to anything new he would be involved with and both were filmed partly at Elstree Studios. I see no reason for someone not to have photographed it earlier and Lucas and co. had thought of Raiders for a long time, so surely some research could have been made regarding what whips look nice. So... just because it's a whip, doesn't mean it's a screen used Raiders one and even if it was, it still gives us from Raiders pre-production and forward.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about this helmet?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:20 pm 
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I must dig in this further and get back to you on this.


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