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 Post subject: Recasting - Good or Bad?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:02 am 
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State your opinions - for or against or both or whatever... let's get this discussion going, as discussions is what we are here for... or is that beer... oh... no... it's props... sorry! :thumbsup

So... let's hear your views.

I'll go first:

Cast off Screen Used - good (unless there are accurate licensed equivalents)
Cast off Licensed1 (no longer produced items) - not so good, but still not bad.
Cast off Licensed2 (still in production) - bad (as who wants a copy when you can get a real one?)
Copy of a copy or of a private individuals original work (recast) - bad (I wanna grind somebody to a pulp fiction bad)

Yeah, I know, very simplified... and somewhat hypocritical in a way... but hey... if LFL delivered, then I would be all licensed guru.

EDIT: for clarity! :thumbsup

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Last edited by Too Much Garlic on Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:33 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:06 am 
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Interesting!

Well I plead ignorance.

One reason why.

Without these cast, copies etc.. We would have nothing other than some licensed inferior product that does not equate to what we visually see on screen.


Now there are some plain bad helmets out there. A copy of a copy is bad I agree. Although in some respects this is down to the skill of the prop maker also the material being used, I know some warpage or shrinkage can occur. I am not supporting this but at the same time I am not naive.

There are only a handful of big names out there and It's almost like some can't win. Take the Darth Jones ANH helmet. Meant to be the best etc, etc...Yet some question this and where it came.

Some like to talk about lineage, generation etc..
Of course these things are important adding to the props value and name, however lets take the almighty Ghost Host as an example. Nice helmet. Is it the best? No! The most accurate? No. As it appears this helmet is still in demand as it has some history by way of linking it to the original in a very loose way. It's size is the supposed benchmark and is one of the big names out there that produce that circulated interest. However I prefer accuracy. Visually I prefer something that looks screen used as opposed to "reputation".

it's all individual opinion at the end of the day even though it's natural for some groups/packs to support a particular helmet. I like the work of SPFX and JB I know every prop maker in the business has reputations which also include the others with the possible exception of VM, Am I interested? Yes. Do I care? No! Ultimately I have a collection of beautiful helmets.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:35 pm 
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Very sound reasonings. :thumbsup

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:29 pm 
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I'm surprised this thread hasn't created more interest? Come on people :blah .


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:05 pm 
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Good points, if LFL delivered that would be one thing. I also agree that accuracy is more important in the end than reputation alone. Me personally in the case of helmets I would rather just buy one that was accurate and maybe just paint it myself, but I think thats where part of this starts.

You have that group that is only out there for quick "easy" money so they rip off someone's hard work and research, and you have those that are always reaching for that screen look and IMO those are the most honest and straight forward people.

This could be divided up so many different ways. And selfishness and jealousy are in the mix too. Of course I will have to say that people are too quick to make the accusation these days. What starts out as a hobby for enjoyment turns into a fight over money and who is the "top dog"

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:39 am 
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It is indeed a very strange subject this one full of more grey areas than my grandads beard
Most would say that casting from a screen used prop or liscenced product is ok but why is this ? perhaps because its because they see it as copying a big rich corporation rather than an individual ?
Me personally i would say its ok if the original is used as a base to work from and modify and improve we all know most liscenced products are not of the greatest quality the same applies to a lot of screen used props they weren't built to be closely scrutinised.

Now onto the real bone of contention casting from individual propmakers work this is where it gets really tricky as you have to consider how the individual made the prop to start with was it a total scratch built original sculpt or a modified cast from screen used items ?

Then consider the propmaker themselves and there motives for making the props are they just fans of the movies and want to make an accurate copy of a prop or are they in it for making money ?

If they are in it for the pleasure of making an accurate copy of a prop from a movie then they should be aware of the risks of someone recasting their work, if they make it available on the open market it will with no doubt be recast buy someone.
Of course we all know that recreating a prop is an expensive proccess and propmakers are sometimes left with no other option than to sell their work to allow them to cover the costs of the original creation and carry on with further projects.
In short though my view is if you are a propmaker and have to sell copies then only sell them to trusted individuals who you know will not pour silicone over your work for a quick buck this will cut down any risk of recasts of your work reaching the open market the only way you will guarantee your work will not be recast is not to sell it.

Now if the individual propmaker in question is in it purely to make money does that make them any different to liscenced product suppliers ? especially if the prop is just a recast of an original movie prop ?

I'd be especially interested in peoples views on the last question

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:42 pm 
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Well, with the movie prop, then it is a piece that is not available to buy in the first place - unless some company buys a license and makes a product. Most props never gets licensed, but those which does should be off-limits to allowing recasting or making copies off.

Also, we need to have a clear definition of what "recasting" means in this context, as there is very specific meanings associated with the word.

Recasting is taking someone else's work, molding and casting it with the sole purpose of selling copies - usually inferior to the original source. It is ONLY about the money - when used in that context.

Then there are the people who molds screen-used items, not available for people to buy, and though they are making a mold of that item and making casts I really don't think it falls under the category of recasting - yes, they are making copies to sell to people interested in owning one, but they have usually spent a large amount of money to buy or obtain access the original.

Some could argue that both are recasting... and in a sense they are, but there are still differences between the two. Recasting (in the prop & model kit context) is done for purely selfish, monetary and negative reasons, whereas the one making copies available of a screen used item - either by own manufacture or a direct cast from the original - is more doing it for the love of the prop and a willingness to share that love with others who love the prop as much.

There's a difference between making copies and recasting... even though it basically is the same thing, if you know what I mean.

Anyone are free to disagree... and I welcome their opinions, as I don't claim that my way is the only way! :lol

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:57 pm 
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At last people are branching into this subject :wink:

I agree with the last few posts in many ways.

Ultimately people who still offer these great props in production today are keeping fans happy so that they dont have to have second rate official stuff. The only downfall against that is that the limitations on props such as GH as example offer the prop collector more value if they own them as naturally they become limited once production has ceased.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:12 am 
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Let me put it this way. We all have a choice what to buy. We can choose based on the looks of a piece and also based on the reputation of the maker.

Everyone....both here and on the other forums, when they see something new that they like...they want a casting of it. Some almost expect that if you show something, you are going to offer castings of it. My point of view is this: if someone sources something that no one else could possibly find or source themselves except from the original source (maker of the piece), there should be some courtesy if that person offers castings but does not want those castings recast. I have yet to see that kind of courtesy. Where are we now? Distrust, and a situation where the recasts are commonplace and accepted as being authentic. Without trust, there can be no sharing and no progress.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:47 pm 
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I will put in my two cents. There are a lot a view points when it comes to recasting. Some will argue that it all is GL's stuff in the first place.If we are talking Star Wars. My biggest problem is when prop makers flat out lie to would be buyers about their product. Claiming authenticity or permission from the mold maker to recast his work. I think the recast debate will never end but if your going to do it at least be honest about what your doing and not try to legitimize your actions with false claims.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:36 pm 
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Evereything below is also pretty much simplified, but I see it like this:

1. - Items cast directly off screenused stuff - fantastic - bring it on - :lol

2. - Items cast of copies of "1." - still ok, and I believe the base of many
things out there like altered copies of the DP Deluxe and such stuff.
This is already the point were people are starting to make claims
about some stuff even tough they are only recasters themselves.

3. - Items cast of FAN-MODIFIED copies of "1." or "2." - here's were the
real trouble starts. Somebody has put work into a Helmet either to
make it more screen accurate looking or to give it a personal note.
If these Telltales get copied by someone else the original makers are
of course pretty pissed off - this is already what I try to avoid buying
at least if it hasn't been so heavily modified that it is much better than
it's origin. So if not simply recast but also reworked to make it better
you have another point to argue about - I'm a bit torn on this one, as
you have differences from case to case.

4. - Items cast off somebody elses Original work. This is where the fun
really ends for me. Some artist starts with nothing but a hunk of clay
and thus is the creator of the finished result whatever it may be.
It is an Original Sculpt (now I'm not even going into LICENSING!)
Some scumbag arrives on the scene and buys a copy of that work
only to make molds and sell (most likely cheaper) versions of the
original artists work - that is something that deservers heavy beating
with the old "beating stick" in my opinion!

5. - Items cast of Original stuff that is owned privately. Now this is a bit
different than "1." - Let's say "Mr. XYZ" purchases a Screenused
Stormtrooper Helmet for a LOT of $$$ in an Auction or whereever.
Mr. XYZ now decides to have molds made and to share a very small
and limited run of his prized posession to either regain some funds,
or just out of sheer joy for the hobby and happiness to share ...
(yes yes - a rare case ... LOL ...) This is perfectly fine for the small
amount of people lucky enough to get a shot at this rare item.
Now it gets tricky and ugly when we get to point "6." ...

6. - Items Recast of "5." without permission of the Owner of the Original.
A lot of people would pay anything to get a copy of stuff like that, but
The owner of the Original had decided to only share with a selected
few people since he can do with his own property whatever he likes.
Again I'm NOT talking about LICENSING here, as our whole hobby
lives from unlicensed items and a Code of Honor that recasters break
on a regular basis to make profit, and that's what its all about here.
So let's say "Seller ABC" gets his dirty recaster mitts on one of the
Stormtrooper Helmet castings from "Mr. XYZ" and copies it.
Again this is the point where the fun ends, as Seller ABC is STEALING
the property of Mr. XYZ - selling recasts for profit !!! - this again is
time to fetch the old beating stick and give it good to "Seller ABC" .

7. - Items recast of Licensed pieces. Ok ... tricky again, as it makes a
difference from case to case. Let's say I want an accurate looking
Lightsaber, and Company A offers one for 1000,- USD ... OUCH !!!
I only want it to have it hanging on my Vader Mannequin and look
good, so "Seller ABC" offers a Resin recast of this Saber for 50,-
bucks ... I'm sorry, but I have no choice than to buy from Seller ABC
since the price policy of some companies is so ridiculous for the
"mass produced crap" they are all too often offering, that I'm not
willing (not even able) to spend such a huge amount on a "TOY".
So in this case ... welcome to the dark grey Zone of opinions ...
Also Companies are out there to make money, and are not really
a part of the comunity - although some tried to "come down" to
us poor earthlings and throw us some bones from time to time ...


8. - Items recast of Discontinued Licensed Pieces. Mostly the same as
in "7." Since some stuff just isn't available anymore and often the
only chance to get some stuff is in form of copies of this item.
But this is again the "company out to make money" thing - these
are just all too often "left out" of this Code of Honor among thiefs - :wink:

Man ... this was again an awful lot to write, and I'm sure I forgot about
half of what I wanted to say or point out, but you can discuss and argue
pretty endlessly about all this, and in the end it all comes down to this:

RESPECT - you are part of a comunity - respect others work and property
and don't "steal" from your own kiln or it will go down on you like a bunch
of rabid dogs ...

Cheers,

Jesper

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:11 pm 
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excellent overview of the different possiblities...probably the best I've seen....very well written

I'll add that recasters tend to recast what they want as long as they know it's in demand and will make money. I'll grant they might have enthusiasm themselves for the prop replicas they recast, but that doesn't make it right (I'm mainly referring to category #6). I think that if there was more honor among the Vader prop replica makers, we would see many more castings of original orgin available years ago even. I see the buyers here happy with the stuff that's available and that's fine but they don't realize what they are missing out on off the forums. And that stuff stays off the forums because of recasters. So I don't take the view that the recasters do us a service because otherwise we would not have accurate castings. It's the opposite. We have inaccurate castings available to us that stay inaccurate because of the concern for recasting and the tight lip on other offerings.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:12 pm 
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The industry and community have been evolving. Lines of clearly defined categories from 3-5 years back have now blurred. It's not about "recasters vs. copiers" any more because people with artistic capabilities have now surfaced and joined the community.

I think we all share similar values and a desire to honor the work of prop artists who work on things (be it a modification of a helmet or a scratch-build). I do not wish to see them branded with the term "recaster" simply because they fall into an inflexible category that villifies them when in fact they may be embettering the community. Nor do I wish to see someone making a contribution to the community automatically defined as "doing it for money" again due to a dogmatic rule because when we do so, we are passing judgement on someone's motivations and then we are all harmed as a result.

I've spoken to some people about this, and I think it comes down to this. It's complex, and its constantly changing. You can define the extremes, but the gray areas may hide gold. Let us not shoot down the gold that may be about to emerge from the gray areas because by doing so to have our rules perfectly conformed with, the recasters who never go by any rules will win.

In this regard, JRX said it well:

Quote:
3. - Items cast of FAN-MODIFIED copies of "1." or "2." - here's were the
real trouble starts. Somebody has put work into a Helmet either to
make it more screen accurate looking or to give it a personal note.
If these Telltales get copied by someone else the original makers are
of course pretty pissed off - this is already what I try to avoid buying
at least if it hasn't been so heavily modified that it is much better than
it's origin. So if not simply recast but also reworked to make it better
you have another point to argue about - I'm a bit torn on this one, as
you have differences from case to case.


Let's be carefull not to make a new generation of fan-modders and improvers an endangered species.

Now one may say, "Well, if someone recasts a recaster's work, he's doing no better." Well, that's looking at it one-dimensionally. Where's the gold in the gray? Well, if that person then studies it and sculpts it, refines it, sculpts it again, checks his photo, goes "Crap!" and goes back and redoes something --- all until he's happy that he's done his best to bring a better Vader onto the market, then that is gold. Why?

1. The improver is giving the community an alternative to recasts that are successively declining in quality

2. The improver is making available something that is of truer accuracy

3. The new casting, if given a chance, may become the next evolutionary identity of that casting and may even escape its progenitor's shadow

4. The new effort has artistic input intrinsic to the improver's time, efforts, blood, sweat and tears

5. People will consider the improver's efforts over that of the cheap recasters (inasmuch as the improver is truthful about it not being "cast off an original", etc.)

Conversely, any fan-modder's work is subject to the dangers of being recasted by recasters. No matter how much may go into a Vader helmet, someone outside of the industry can just see "Vader" and fail to see the subtleties, and then copy it indiscriminately.

In the courts, if you're trying to defend your modifications, the jury may fail to see the world of subtleties you've worked in. They may see "on you reduced the neck flare" but not recognize how true to an original helmet you modded your kit to be. What's taken an artist months or years to develop an eye for cannot be taught to someone overnight.

As I said, it's not about "recasters vs. copiers" any more because people with artistic capabilities have now surfaced and joined the community. One with artistic capability can use that capability to make something for profit and yet be categorically in the same boat as another who uses that ability to take a substandard kit and put a world of a labor of love into it in order to make the most out of it, then make it available to disadvantaged fellow Vader fans who have been exposed to nothing but crap from recasters and vendors.

I hesitate to pass judgement too quickly because it may appear to the casual observer that both are doing the same thing.

I think Sithlord put it well in that you have to trust someone. You have to get to know them. They have to get to know you. And that is where the Community comes in. Buy from someone you feel you know, who is open and his/her communication is forthright. I trust the community here on the Den more than any other website. There are people who have great knowledge but are a bunch of asses. Then there are a bunch of people who mean well but give bad advice. Here on the Den, people not only mean well, but they give good advice, and they share knowledge and experience in a spirit of friendship.

In the end, how we support that community is going to decide the shape of things -- and masks -- to come. The more we support the community, the fringe recasters would get less business.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:49 pm 
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Very good points made JRX. This is always an interesting subject.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:35 pm 
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I believe ANYBODY here has at some point bought a recast, and it doesn't
matter if you bought it "fully aware" or "unaware". I'm not only talking
about Helmets. It goes from helmets, to full armors, to blasters, to small
single parts needed to finish a project. recasts are everywhere, and you
can't escape them.

As much as most of us dislike the recasting matter, this hobby wouldn't be
as "rich" on items as it is, and many of your collections wouldn't be half as
big as they are - :wink:

For some things recasts are even pretty useful. When I was about to start
work on the Concept Vader helmet I needed a cheap Vader Helmet to use
as a "skeleton-base", so I bought a 200,- US$ crap kit from eBay and it
served me very well - :wink: - It was a very crappy DP deluxe recast.

Now I think whenever you're out wanting to modify a Helmet on your own
you don't go for an expensive High-end product, don't you ... no ... you
look for a reasonably priced BUT "good base" to start from ... and those
are mostly all exactly those recasts we're all looking down to - :wink:

I know this will spawn a controversy and a heated discussion again, but
that's one reason we are here - to discuss - so I'm bringing up the most
current example of that super cheap 80 $ recast of the TE Set for Stun
helmet. We all know the TE SFS is a High-End laser scanned accurate
representation of that screenused Helmet, and TE's price for this one
made the buyers feel this very heavily in their wallets - :wink:

Now you can get a COPY of this "ultra collectible" Helmet for more than
10 times less what the original cost. That makes even the hardest anti
recaster mouth watering - be honest with yourselves, guys.

Now I'm not making a difference in the purchase of a recast with the
reason you buy it for - either to have a helmet that looks like the SFS,
or to have a perfect base for a modification project - you buy a recast
either way - it is what it is no matter what you're buying it for.
But who on earth would be so stupid (sorry if somebody actually did this)
to buy an original TE SFS just to play around with and modify it for fun ?
Yes ... that guy in the third row who won the lottery ... thanks - sit down!
NOBODY would ... you'd buy the cheapo fun version and don't even have
bad feelings about it because you didn't blew the christmas gift savings
for it - That's how it is.

We see nice Boba Fett recasts on ebay going for 90,- USD all the time,
and some bought them for the fun of modding. We see different recast
Vader Helmet Kits on ebay selling for "humane" prices. We see various
Stormtrooper recasts on ebay all the time ... now there is a new one,
and this time it struck one of the really "rare ones" ...

Hell, and if people want to buy them they'll buy them - even "most" of us
are "Bargain Hunters" ... we're not the "Millionairs Club" ... so you are
caught in a situation where the snake bites its own tail ... buy a recast,
support a recaster - don't buy it and pass on the opportunity to add
another nice "Gem" to your collection for a very low price ... I don't
think eveyone on these boards can claim that their collection consists
entirely of "Original Makers" pieces ... a few can - I know ... but most
here can't - including me ...

Before you start to rip me to pieces ... there is a different view to many
things, and this I wanted to show here ... think about it - :wink:

Cheers,

Jesper

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The pellet with the poison's in the vessel with the pestle;
the chalice from the palace has the brew that is true!

The pellet with the poison's in the flagon with the dragon;
the vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true.


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